Camcording, il pirata sedeva qui

o.O
un utonto tra quelli che descrivi, per semplificare, potrebbe paragonarti... ad un pazzo paranoico x°Dehehe senza offesa, lunga vita agli orsi (come me) dell' IT

bella
Bell'articolo, ti quoto in pieno ^^

Re: bella
- Scritto da: Ste> Bell'articolo, ti quoto in pieno ^^SONO PIENAMENTE D'ACCORDO!!!OTTIMO ARTICOLOBRAVO

simpatici
questi roboITini che chiamano utonti quelli che non sono programmmati come loro e credono che il loro essere programmati sia genialità. Magari fra gli utonti c'è quello che fa sì che quando si siedono a tavola per mangiare sul piatto ci sia della buona pasta anzichè dei chips al silicone, o quello che ha messo sulle loro teste un rassicurante tetto anzichè un infido cielo. Geni anche loro, roboITini, come tutti coloro che sanno fare bene il loro lavoro, ma molto meno robots di voi, perchè si interfacciano con la vita e con la realtà e non con la virtualità. Attenti: gli altari li costruiscono gli uomini, e come tutte le cose costruite dall'uomo, finiscono col franare e diventare nel tempo reperti archeologici.

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: boh> questi roboITini che chiamano utonti quelli che> non sono programmmati come loro e credono che il> loro essere programmati sia genialità.non e' genialita', trattasi di cultura informatica.> Magari fra> gli utonti c'è quello che fa sì che quando si> siedono a tavola per mangiare sul piatto ci sia> della buona pasta anzichè dei chips al silicone,Silicio, casomai.> o quello che ha messo sulle loro teste un> rassicurante tetto anzichè un infido cielo. Geni> anche loro, roboITini, come tutti coloro che> sanno fare bene il loro lavoro, ma molto meno> robots di voi, perchè si interfacciano con la> vita e con la realtà e non con la virtualità.> Attenti: gli altari li costruiscono gli uomini, e> come tutte le cose costruite dall'uomo, finiscono> col franare e diventare nel tempo reperti> archeologici.Calmo li'. Se vado dal medico perche' mi fa male qui,lui mi visita, mi interroga, mi fa la diagnosi e mi prescrive una cura. Io sto sto zitto e ubbidisco: lui e' il medico, io sono il paziente. chiaro fino qui?Utonto viene da me lamentando un malfunziuonamento/guasto/problema col suo pc. Il guardo il pc, chiedo "cosa hai fatto?" lui risponde "niente/ieri finzionava/etc". Io visito il pc, trovo la cache di internet explore piena di link XXXXX e un paio di malware, io interrogo l'utonto, lui risponde "non sono stato io". Vedo che il firewall e' disabilitato lui mi dice "me lo ha detto mio cognato di fare cosi perche il pc naviga piu veloce". io gli pulisco il pc, sistemo il problema, gli raccomando di non fare piu' XXXXXXX, lui dice "si, si" e appena sono andato eccolo li che si rifionda sui siti spornazzoni e tempo tre giorni siamo da capo.COGLI LA DIFFERENZA?!??!?!?!?!

Re: simpatici
Stupendo esempio! Aggiungo: chi difende gli UTONTI evidentemente non ha mai avuto a che fare con loro, altrimenti capirebbe...

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: Mario Giammarco> Stupendo esempio! Aggiungo: chi difende gli> UTONTI evidentemente non ha mai avuto a che fare> con loro, altrimenti capirebbe...Oppure e' un'utonto :D @^

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: attonito>> Utonto viene da me lamentando un> malfunziuonamento/guasto/problema col suo pc. Il> guardo il pc, chiedo "cosa hai fatto?" lui> risponde "niente/ieri finzionava/etc". Io visito> il pc, trovo la cache di internet explore piena> di link XXXXX e un paio di malware, io interrogo> l'utonto, lui risponde "non sono stato io". E quelli che ti dicono: "Io non ci capisco niente, ma secondo me è......" e vanno avanti 20 minuti a parlarti della loro teoria. Ma se non ci capisci niente, stare zitto?

Re: simpatici
> COGLI LA DIFFERENZA?!??!?!?!?!Smetti di leggere quel sito... vi sta facendo il lavaggio del cervello: ne ho gia visti licenziare un paio di ragazzotti che rispondevano "quale parte di no non hai capito" agli utenti (hint: se l'utente in questione e' il CEO o il CFO e' una pessima idea). Lavoro nella consulenza IT da 15 anni: ho girato tutti gli uffici possibili ed immaginabili (finanza, logistica, marketing, ecc)lavorando con centinaia di cosiddetti utonti e i casi erano due: o il pc non lo sapevano usare e quindi non riuscivano nemmeno ad incasinarlo o sapevano benissimo cosa succedeva e ammettevano tranquillamente (tanto il lavoro del sistemista e' quello). Senza contare che il lavoro di un buon dipartimento IT e' quello di prevenire cose come quella che scrivi, non risolverla a posteriori. Tutti i sistemisti con cui ho lavorato hanno storie da raccontare su utenti idioti, (cosi' come io ho decine di storie da raccontare su sistemisti e IT fanXXXXXsti e incompetenti) ma far credere che siano tutti cosi' o che siano la maggioranza e' veramente patetico. Infine sai quante volte ho visto utenti spiegare con pazienza infinta ai sistemisti (nelle aziende piccole) o a quelli dell'IT (aziende grandi) che i dati inseriti (dall'IT) nel database erano sbagliati, che le LORO procedure di caricamento sXXXXXXXvano qualcosa, che il calcolo non era corretto ne tantomeno quello concordato? Che il report di vendita generato non poteva essere giusto? Che con la rete cosi' lenta NON potevano lavorare? Che se il CFO si sveglia e vuole il budget rifatto per domani il problema e' anche dell'IT.Come direbbe Sacchi, un po' di umilte'...

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: nome e cognome> > COGLI LA DIFFERENZA?!??!?!?!?!> Tutti i sistemisti con cui ho lavorato hanno> storie da raccontare su utenti idioti, (cosi'> come io ho decine di storie da raccontare su> sistemisti e IT fanXXXXXsti e incompetenti) ma> far credere che siano tutti cosi' o che siano la> maggioranza e' veramente patetico.Guarda che il primo di questo forum ad affermare "che siano tutti cosi' o che siano la maggioranza" sei tu, neanche l'articolo afferma da nessuna parte una cosa del genere; ed in effetti questo, come dici esattamente, ti rende un po' patetico.

Re: simpatici
> Lavoro nella consulenza IT da 15 anni: ho girato> tutti gli uffici possibili ed immaginabili> (finanza, logistica, marketing, ecc)lavorando con> centinaia di cosiddetti utonti e i casi erano> due: o il pc non lo sapevano usare e quindi non> riuscivano nemmeno ad incasinarlo o sapevano> benissimo cosa succedeva e ammettevano> tranquillamente (tanto il lavoro del sistemista> e' quello). Senza contare che il lavoro di un> buon dipartimento IT e' quello di prevenire cose> come quella che scrivi, non risolverla a> posteriori.BALLE! o meglio, sarebbe vero SE il reparto "X" chiedesso il parere del reparto "IT" PRIMA di comprare $costosissimo_software che poi, ma guarda un po, e' fatto per SOLARIS e non per WinXP. E quindi devi comprare anche un server solaris sparc64, triplicando il budget iniziale. Ah si, ovviamente e' colpa dell'IT che non ha previsto l'idiozia del reparto acquisti.> Tutti i sistemisti con cui ho lavorato hanno> storie da raccontare su utenti idioti, (cosi'> come io ho decine di storie da raccontare su> sistemisti e IT fanXXXXXsti e incompetenti) ma> far credere che siano tutti cosi' o che siano la> maggioranza e' veramente patetico.il fatto e' un altro: la gente chiama l'IT DOPO aver commesso l'errore e la colpa, chissa perche, non e' MAI dell'utonto ma sempre dell'IT. Compa un'auto, viaggia per 15000Km cl freno a mano rtirato e poi vai dal meccanico dicendogli: la mia macchina non funziona bene, E' COLPA TUA! Vedi se ti manda affanXXXX o no.> Infine sai quante volte ho visto utenti spiegare> con pazienza infinta ai sistemisti (nelle aziende> piccole) o a quelli dell'IT (aziende grandi) che> i dati inseriti (dall'IT) nel database erano> sbagliati, che le LORO procedure di caricamento> sXXXXXXXvano qualcosa, che il calcolo non era> corretto ne tantomeno quello concordato? Che il> report di vendita generato non poteva essere> giusto? Che con la rete cosi' lenta NON potevano> lavorare?ovvio che se la gente pistoleggi su facebook, youtube, etc, e se l'IT non puo castrare la rete lasciando aperte SOLO le perte necessasie - per non limitare la liverta dei colleghi - ovvio, ecco che la rete puo collassare... eh? > Che se il CFO si sveglia e vuole il budget> rifatto per domani il problema e' anche> dell'IT.toccasse meno culi di segretarie e pianificasse meglio le attivita... no , eh?> Come direbbe Sacchi, un po' di umilte'...l'esempio DOVREBBE venire dall'alto....l'universo puo' essere visto come ina lotta tra sisteminsti, che cercano ci creare sistemi sempre piu' a prova di XXXXXXXXX e Dio, che chea XXXXXXXXX sempre piu' astuti. Inutile dire che per il momento, Dio sta vincendo.

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: nome e cognome> > COGLI LA DIFFERENZA?!??!?!?!?!> > Smetti di leggere quel sito... E' gia'... la conoscenza rende liberi.L'ignoranza invece permette a gente ancora piu' ignorante di te, ma che per motivi non certo dipendenti dal merito si trova a coordinarti, di poterti comandare a bacchetta.> vi sta facendo il lavaggio del cervello: Io personalemnte ho trovato utili un paio di procedure spiegate in quel sito.> ne ho gia visti licenziare> un paio di ragazzotti che rispondevano "quale> parte di no non hai capito" agli utenti (hint: se> l'utente in questione e' il CEO o il CFO e' una> pessima idea).L'ignoranza e' molto democratica, colpisce anche gli alti vertici.Ma e' anche molto suscettibile: quando viene evidenziata, non si rimedia acculturandosi, ma cacciando colui che la evidenzia.> Lavoro nella consulenza IT da 15 anni: Senza capirci un cavolo, a quanto pare.Ce ne sono di individui come te in giro, purtroppo.> ho girato> tutti gli uffici possibili ed immaginabili> (finanza, logistica, marketing, ecc)lavorando con> centinaia di cosiddetti utonti e i casi erano> due: o il pc non lo sapevano usare e quindi non> riuscivano nemmeno ad incasinarlo o sapevano> benissimo cosa succedeva e ammettevano> tranquillamente (tanto il lavoro del sistemista> e' quello). Si, certo. Tutti tu li hai trovati.Io invece in 20 anni di tecnico ne avro' trovati un paio che hanno spiegato quello che hanno fatto per inXXXXXre tutto.> Senza contare che il lavoro di un> buon dipartimento IT e' quello di prevenire cose> come quella che scrivi, non risolverla a> posteriori.Quello dipende da quelli come te, che dovrebbero coordinare il gruppo, se prevenire o curare.Io certo non prendo iniziative.> Infine sai quante volte ho visto utenti spiegare> con pazienza infinta ai sistemisti (nelle aziende> piccole) o a quelli dell'IT (aziende grandi) che> i dati inseriti (dall'IT) nel database erano> sbagliati, che le LORO procedure di caricamento> sXXXXXXXvano qualcosa, che il calcolo non era> corretto ne tantomeno quello concordato? E che c'entrano i sistemisti di grazia?1) l'IT non fa data entry2) le procedure le sviluppano i programmatori non i sistemisti3) il calcolo da implementare lo stabiliscono gli utenti con gli analisti (e poi ci sara' stato uno user test prima di mettere in produzione, o da voi non si usa?)> Che il report di vendita generato non poteva essere> giusto? > Che con la rete cosi' lenta NON potevano lavorare?Provato a spegnere il mulo?> Che se il CFO si sveglia e vuole il budget> rifatto per domani il problema e' anche> dell'IT.No. Non e' un problema dell'IT.L'IT si occupa di tecnologie aziendali non del grafico del budget.> Come direbbe Sacchi, un po' di umilte'...Ecco, appunto. Scendi dal piedistallo e vieni qui accanto a me a lavorare allora...

Re: simpatici
bellissima!questa me la stampo

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: boh> anzichè dei chips al silicone,Aridaje col silicone.Tu ce l'hai nella testa il silicone, per sopperire alla carenza di cervello.In italiano si chiama SILICIO.

Re: simpatici
- Scritto da: boh> questi roboITini che chiamano utonti quelli che> non sono programmmati come loro e credono che il> loro essere programmati sia genialità. Magari fra> gli utonti c'è quello che fa sì che quando si> siedono a tavola per mangiare sul piatto ci sia> della buona pasta anzichè dei chips al silicone,> o quello che ha messo sulle loro teste un> rassicurante tetto anzichè un infido cielo. Geni> anche loro, roboITini, come tutti coloro che> sanno fare bene il loro lavoro, ma molto meno> robots di voi, perchè si interfacciano con la> vita e con la realtà e non con la virtualità.> Attenti: gli altari li costruiscono gli uomini, e> come tutte le cose costruite dall'uomo, finiscono> col franare e diventare nel tempo reperti> archeologici.Tipica risposta da utonto che non ha capito nulla del problema di cui si discute.Accendere il cervello, please: non fa male, davvero.

.. che storia...
mi ci ritrovo in pieno, sembra la storia della mia vita...

Utonto
Il sig. Cubasia è pregato di tenere il dispregiativo "utonto" per se. E' pregato di non dare forma ufficiale ad un epiteto, che tale è la parola "utonto", usata troppo spesso per definire non solo chi non ha conoscenze informatiche ma per bollare lo stesso individuo come "scemo". Potrei dire che il sig. Cubasia è un Utonto (e con la U maiuscola) se non sa programmare in assembler o in C come me, ma non lo dico perchè lo ritengo offensivo.Il pedagogismo da due lire non dovrebbe trovare spazio e diffusione anche se vige una certa libertà di stampa ed espressione: "nuoce gravemente alla salute".

Re: Utonto
Un vecchio detto recita che la gallina che canta ha fatto l'uovo.....

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: Jeraticus> Il sig. Cubasia è pregato di tenere il> dispregiativo "utonto" per se. E' pregato di non> dare forma ufficiale ad un epiteto, che tale è la> parola "utonto", usata troppo spesso per definire> non solo chi non ha conoscenze informatiche ma> per bollare lo stesso individuo come "scemo".> Potrei dire che il sig. Cubasia è un Utonto (e> con la U maiuscola) se non sa programmare in> assembler o in C come me, ma non lo dico perchè> lo ritengo offensivo.La grossa differenza tra un utente ed un utonto e' che il primo ascolta quello che gli si dice avendo rispetto per l'opinione del professionista che gli da' i consigli, il secondo crede di sapere e fa XXXXXX, meritandosi cosi' i piu' coloriti epiteti che possano essere inventati.> Il pedagogismo da due lire non dovrebbe trovare> spazio e diffusione anche se vige una certa> libertà di stampa ed espressione: "nuoce> gravemente alla salute".Il pedagogismo da fastidio agli ignoranti che sono orgoglioni di essere tali.

Re: Utonto
> La grossa differenza tra un utente ed un utonto> e' che il primo ascolta quello che gli si dice> avendo rispetto per l'opinione del professionista> che gli da' i consigli, il secondo crede di> sapere e fa XXXXXX, meritandosi cosi' i piu'> coloriti epiteti che possano essere> inventati.Magari fosse così. Si dà dell'utonto troppo facilmente, anche a chi capisce sbagliato proprio perché, tu professionista, non ti sei spiegato bene o perché la cosa non é affatto semplice come sembra.Poi se un cliente é una testa di mi...a quello é un altro discorso, ma non centra con l'epiteto utonto utente-tonto.> > > Il pedagogismo da fastidio agli ignoranti che> sono orgoglioni di essere> tali.O, per esempio, ad una certa età non sempre si é in grado di imparare certe cose che noi giovani diamo per scontate.Se uno non "ci arriva" non é un deficente subumano!

Re: Utonto
hai ragione, ma certa gente non lo capisce... nn sa vedere al di la' del suo orto... non concepisce che alcuni non sappiano alcune cose di informatica. Poi spesso l'arroganza è la prima materia che imparano gli informatici, prima ancora di reti o di programmazione.

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: Steve Austin> > La grossa differenza tra un utente ed un utonto> > e' che il primo ascolta quello che gli si dice> > avendo rispetto per l'opinione del> > professionista che gli da' i consigli, il > > secondo crede di sapere e fa XXXXXX, meritandosi > > cosi' i piu' coloriti epiteti che possano essere> > inventati.> Magari fosse così. Si dà dell'utonto troppo> facilmente, anche a chi capisce sbagliato proprio> perché, tu professionista, non ti sei spiegato> bene o perché la cosa non é affatto semplice come> sembra.Ma tu non hai mai trovato quei soggetti che vogliono insegnare al reparto tecnico solo perche' hanno un Pc a casa ?Quello che crede di sapere fare tutto lui e poi viene da te a dirti che non funziona piu' ma lui non ha fatto niente ?> Poi se un cliente é una testa di mi...a quello é> un altro discorso, ma non centra con l'epiteto> utonto utente-tonto.Essere testa di mi...a e' solo una delle cose che servono a fare un utonto: dimmi te se in qualsiasi campo quando vai da un professionista per farti consigliare su qualcosa e ti rifiuti di dire i passaggi che hai fatto per metterti nella condizione in cui sei finito, e' lo stesso problema che hanno i veterinari quando devono esaminare un gatto.> > Il pedagogismo da fastidio agli ignoranti che> > sono orgoglioni di essere tali.> O, per esempio, ad una certa età non sempre si é> in grado di imparare certe cose che noi giovani> diamo per scontate.Si vede lontano un miglio se sei orgoglione di essere tale o se sei solo un po' lento ad imparare; la grossa differenza di solito e' che l'orgoglione crede anche di essere piu' furbo di quello che ha davanti e prova a prendere per il cu.> Se uno non "ci arriva" non é un deficente subumano!Infatti se uno non ci arriva di solito non lo si apostrofa come "utonto", l'utonto vero non solo non ci arriva ma e' anche convinto.

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: Jeraticus> Il sig. Cubasia è pregato di tenere il> dispregiativo "utonto" per se. E' pregato di non> dare forma ufficiale ad un epiteto, che tale è la> parola "utonto", usata troppo spesso per definire> non solo chi non ha conoscenze informatiche ma> per bollare lo stesso individuo come "scemo".> Potrei dire che il sig. Cubasia è un Utonto (e> con la U maiuscola) se non sa programmare in> assembler o in C come me, ma non lo dico perchè> lo ritengo> offensivo.> Il pedagogismo da due lire non dovrebbe trovare> spazio e diffusione anche se vige una certa> libertà di stampa ed espressione: "nuoce> gravemente alla> salute".Concordo in pieno anche perché ognuno di noi é utonto in qualche cosa, per esempio io non capisco na mazza di contabilità ma il ragioniere, che é un bravo professionista, si mette calmo a spiegarmi tutti i punti che io fatico a capire.Quindi una buona professionalità deriva anche dalla capacità di rispettare il cliente/amico/parente che non ne capisce tanto di computers e neanche gliene frega perché alla fine l'umanità é andata avanti per secoli senza.Essere esperti in informatica fà di te un buon consulente ma non un saggio onniscente o un superuomo nietzschiano.Buona fortuna a tutti i Troll.

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: Steve Austin> Quindi una buona professionalità deriva anche> dalla capacità di rispettare il> cliente/amico/parente che non ne capisce tanto di> computers e neanche gliene frega perché alla fine> l'umanità é andata avanti per secoli senza.Appunto: l'utente ti rispetta in quanto tecnico IT, l'utonto no!

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: AMEN> - Scritto da: Steve Austin> > > Quindi una buona professionalità deriva anche> > dalla capacità di rispettare il> > cliente/amico/parente che non ne capisce tanto> di> > computers e neanche gliene frega perché alla> fine> > l'umanità é andata avanti per secoli senza.> > Appunto: l'utente ti rispetta in quanto tecnico> IT, l'utonto> no!Non centra niente il rispetto con il termine utonto.

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: Jeraticus> Il sig. Cubasia è pregato di tenere il> dispregiativo "utonto" per se. E' pregato di non> dare forma ufficiale ad un epiteto, che tale è la> parola "utonto", usata troppo spesso per definire> non solo chi non ha conoscenze informatiche ma> per bollare lo stesso individuo come "scemo".> Potrei dire che il sig. Cubasia è un Utonto (e> con la U maiuscola) se non sa programmare in> assembler o in C come me, ma non lo dico perchè> lo ritengo> offensivo.> Il pedagogismo da due lire non dovrebbe trovare> spazio e diffusione anche se vige una certa> libertà di stampa ed espressione: "nuoce> gravemente alla> salute".Sei un utonto, per caso?Coraggio, una definizione di categoria rafforza l'io dandoti la coerenza necessaria ad appartenere a detta categoria.In parole semplici: brucia, eh???

Re: Utonto
- Scritto da: Jeraticus> Il sig. Cubasia è pregato di tenere il> dispregiativo "utonto" per se.Quoto, non esiste nel mondo del lavoro nessun'altra categoria professionale dove un elevato numero di lavoratori usa spesso epiteti dispregiativi nei confronti dei clienti o degli utenti finali.Forse è anche per la presenza di tali colleghi che l'ICT italiano è messo così male.

ho la soluzione!
quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come funziona questa cosa?"io rispondo: "e' magia!"Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare tranquillo.

Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: attonito> quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come funziona> questa> cosa?"> io rispondo: "e' magia!"> > Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare> tranquillo.E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto tutti e due!"

Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: Steve Austin> - Scritto da: attonito> > quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come funziona> > questa> > cosa?"> > io rispondo: "e' magia!"> > > > Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare> > tranquillo.> E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!> Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono> misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto> tutti e> due!"Se vengo a sapere che qualcuno dei miei ha dato una risposta del genere ad un utente finisce molto male.

Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome> - Scritto da: Steve Austin> > - Scritto da: attonito> > > quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come> funziona> > > questa> > > cosa?"> > > io rispondo: "e' magia!"> > > > > > Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare> > > tranquillo.> > E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!> > Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono> > misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto> > tutti e> > due!"> > Se vengo a sapere che qualcuno dei miei ha dato> una risposta del genere ad un utente finisce> molto> male.Ma se devi spiegargli che hai configurato in maniera diversa lo script che regola l'ordinazione dei dati nella tabella e lui ti guarda smarrito tagli corto e finita lì.Mai avuto problemi a riguardo e il cliente mantiene la fiducia in me.

Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome> - Scritto da: Steve Austin> > - Scritto da: attonito> > > quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come> funziona> > > questa> > > cosa?"> > > io rispondo: "e' magia!"> > > > > > Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare> > > tranquillo.> > E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!> > Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono> > misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto> > tutti e> > due!"> > Se vengo a sapere che qualcuno dei miei ha dato> una risposta del genere ad un utente finisce> molto male.brrrr! rabbrividiamo!

Utonti?
L'uente normalmente è una persona che fa un mestiere diverso dal nostro nel quale, fino a prova contraria, è professionale e preparato come noi riteniamo di essere nel nostro. Inoltre fa parte della nostra professionalità comprendere le esigenze dei nostri clienti, e spiegare le nostre soluzioni con il loro lessico; altrimenti continueremo a essere visti come dei maghetti, cantinari, tecnici (nell'accezione più limitata del termine) e non quello che dovremmo essere, cioè seri professionisti.

Re: Utonti?
- Scritto da: IT o non IT> L'uente normalmente è una persona che fa un> mestiere diverso dal nostro nel quale, fino a> prova contraria, è professionale e preparato come> noi riteniamo di essere nel nostro. Inoltre fa> parte della nostra professionalità comprendere le> esigenze dei nostri clienti, e spiegare le nostre> soluzioni con il loro lessico; altrimenti> continueremo a essere visti come dei maghetti,> cantinari, tecnici (nell'accezione più limitata> del termine) e non quello che dovremmo essere,> cioè seri professionisti.Ma a loro non interessa che gli venga spiegato nulla: se fossero persone "normali" non gli si sarebbe affibiato l'epiteto :D

Re: Utonti?
- Scritto da: IT o non IT> L'uente normalmente è una persona che fa un> mestiere diverso dal nostro nel quale, fino a> prova contraria, è professionale e preparato come> noi riteniamo di essere nel nostro.Assolutamente d'accordo. Ad ognuno il suo lavoro.> altrimenti> continueremo a essere visti come dei maghetti,> cantinari, tecnici (nell'accezione più limitata> del termine) e non quello che dovremmo essere,> cioè seri professionisti.Dipende anche da chi ti trovi davanti. Il mio scopo, come tecnico IT, è far lavorare al meglio i miei utenti, risolvendo i loro problemi e, se possibile, prevenendoli. Poi ci sono utenti "curiosi" che, anche se non capiscono, almeno ci tentano e quelli che, anche se una procedura gliela spieghi 3000 volte, alla 3001 ti telefonano per chiederti come fare....

Re: Utonti?
> Poi ci sono utenti "curiosi" che, anche se non> capiscono, almeno ci tentano e quelli che, anche> se una procedura gliela spieghi 3000 volte, alla> 3001 ti telefonano per chiederti come> fare....Questi ultimi non si chiamano utenti, né utonti. Si chiamano "XXXXXXXXXXXXX". O "cagaXXXXX".

Re: Utonti?
- Scritto da: palle> > Poi ci sono utenti "curiosi" che, anche se non> > capiscono, almeno ci tentano e quelli che, anche> > se una procedura gliela spieghi 3000 volte, alla> > 3001 ti telefonano per chiederti come fare....> Questi ultimi non si chiamano utenti, né utonti. > Si chiamano "XXXXXXXXXXXXX". O "cagaXXXXX".Da questa discussione sembra che fa tanto icZre e' che gli informatici hanno trovato un termine per definirli (rotfl)

tergicristalli
il problema è che nel 90% dei casi la gente che si mette davanti al pc non ha la minima idea di cosa esso sia, come uno che si mette alla guida senza patente e dopo aver bocciato con la pioggia dice "nessuno mi ha detto che c'erano i tergicristalli e come funzionavano"

Re: tergicristalli
e quindi?

Re: tergicristalli
e quindi servirebbe un minimo di formazione, sopratutto nelle scuole. Ma anchei comuni, invece di perdere tempo in "corsi anti stupro" dovrebbero incentivare dei corsi gratuiti per i cittadini.

AAA
C'è un problema di fondo. Per non arrivare a teorizzare l'origine divina del potere tecnologico incarnato nel operatore dell'IT occorre stabilire una volta per sempre senza se e senza ma lo scopo di SERVIZIO dell'opera prestata. A questo punto scompaiono gli utonti e riappaiono i tecnotonti. E abbiamo tutti da imparare.

Utonti e Qualunquismo
Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una categoria dello spirito che si spalma in modo trasversale in tutta la popolazione. Non è qualcosa che abbia a che fare con l'informatica, l'informatica la rende più evidente.Il problema dell'utonto è quello di vivere col paraocchi, senza curiosità, in un mondo di affermazioni apodittiche.In una parola non «Reads The Fine Manual» e per colmare questa lacuna ci mette il proprio diritto ad avere opinioni.È un problema culturale che purtroppo tracima. L'ignoranza ormai è un valore, spesso anche fra noi informatici, purtroppo.Parimenti non sopporto bene chi si lancia nella trita proporzione Informatica : Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica : Caldo,umano,PastaAlPomodoroProvate a fare una pasta al pomodoro senza applicare nessun algoritmo, senza applicare nessuna conoscenza pregressa e vedrete che bel risultato. Le conoscenze Buone,Calde,Umane,DeNoAntri sono tali solo perché sono pregresse :)Sul valore pedagogico dell'ancoraggio (l'effetto del dire Excel=Foglio a quadretti) sono molto scettico. In quella maniera si scatenano direzionandole le euristiche del pensiero facendo sì che questo non elabori gli stimoli in modo costruttivo. Sono profondamente antiriduzionista, ma questa è ovviamente una posizione personale.

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Quoto ed applaudo.

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
marò quanto filosofeggiare!

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Motosauro> Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una> categoria dello spirito che si spalma in modo> trasversale in tutta la popolazione. Non è> qualcosa che abbia a che fare con l'informatica,> l'informatica la rende più> evidente.> Il problema dell'utonto è quello di vivere col> paraocchi, senza curiosità, in un mondo di> affermazioni> apodittiche.> In una parola non «Reads The Fine Manual» e per> colmare questa lacuna ci mette il proprio diritto> ad avere> opinioni.> È un problema culturale che purtroppo tracima.> L'ignoranza ormai è un valore, spesso anche fra> noi informatici,> purtroppo.Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non ne capisce di informatica un essere subumano.Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo analfabete e che vivono ancora nella superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente i nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli inferiori?persone non degne di essere al nostro livello? Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza di molti informatici! > > Parimenti non sopporto bene chi si lancia nella> trita proporzione Informatica :> Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica :> Caldo,umano,PastaAlPomodoro> Provate a fare una pasta al pomodoro senza> applicare nessun algoritmo, senza applicare> nessuna conoscenza pregressa e vedrete che bel> risultato. Una buona pasta al pomodoro sicuramente! L'algoritmo dentro non lo digerisco bene!Le conoscenze> Buone,Calde,Umane,DeNoAntri sono tali solo perché> sono pregresse> :)> > Sul valore pedagogico dell'ancoraggio (l'effetto> del dire Excel=Foglio a quadretti) sono molto> scettico. In quella maniera si scatenano> direzionandole le euristiche del pensiero facendo> sì che questo non elabori gli stimoli in modo> costruttivo. Sono profondamente antiriduzionista,> ma questa è ovviamente una posizione> personale.Ma se non c'é altro modo per farglielo capire devi scendere a compromessi.

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Steve Austin> - Scritto da: Motosauro> > Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono unacut...> Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non ne> capisce di informatica un essere> subumano.> Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo> analfabete e che vivono ancora nella> superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente i> nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli> inferiori?> persone non degne di essere al nostro livello?> Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica> dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza di> molti informatici! > Che c'entrano i paesi in via di sviluppo?Forse non hai capito il senso della mia replicaPer sintetizzare ho detto che il problema non è essere ignoranti, tutti lo siamo in vario grado. Il problema è non voler capire e questo problema lo si trova in tutte le categorie. L'informatica lo rende solo più evidente> cut..> Ma se non c'é altro modo per farglielo capire> devi scendere a> compromessi.No, se scendi a compromessi fai capire una cosa diversa

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Motosauro> - Scritto da: Steve Austin> > - Scritto da: Motosauro> > > Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una> cut...> > Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non> ne> > capisce di informatica un essere> > subumano.> > Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo> > analfabete e che vivono ancora nella> > superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente i> > nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli> > inferiori?> > persone non degne di essere al nostro livello?> > Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica> > dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza di> > molti informatici! > > > Che c'entrano i paesi in via di sviluppo?Era un esempio di ignoranza generale. L'analfabeta tipo che non sa né leggere né scrivere e non vuole impararlo ma che merita comunque il rispetto del non essere chiamato asino.> Forse non hai capito il senso della mia replica> Per sintetizzare ho detto che il problema non è> essere ignoranti, tutti lo siamo in vario grado.> Il problema è non voler capire e questo problema> lo si trova in tutte le categorie. Come lo hai esposto tu sembra che l'ignoranza sia una colpa e il non voler capire un delitto.E comunque un po meno di arroganza e di "ghe so tutto mi" tra gli informatici sarebbe gradito.Se non credi sia vero guardati un po di post fatti da noi: tutti considerano tutti degli utonti/n00bs/braccia rubate all'agricoltura. (come da articolo di Cubasia)L'informatica> lo rende solo più> evidente> > > cut..

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
> Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica :Io il silicone non lo associo ne col freddo ne con l'informatica... mi viene in mente aida yespica.

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Motosauro> Parimenti non sopporto bene chi si lancia nella> trita proporzione Informatica :> Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica :> Caldo,umano,PastaAlPomodoroL'inglese "silicon" si traduce con silicio.Oppure il tuo computer ha la ram in silicone?

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Di suo non e' il computer che ha qualcosa in silicone!! ;P

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: panda rossa> - Scritto da: Motosaurocut...> L'inglese "silicon" si traduce con silicio.> > Oppure il tuo computer ha la ram in silicone?Hai ragione, purtroppo di chimica sono molto ignorante. A dirla tutta però non credo che il tuo computer abbia più componenti in silicio puro di quanto il mio non ne abbia in silicone :)

Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
ma parla come magni!

ci voleva...
Articolo che capita a proposito....sono nel pieno della deriva da odio crescente per gli Utonti...e forse devo rivedere qksa nella mia comunicativa

La logica e' un linguaggio
Tutto vero cio' che c'e' scritto nell'articolo, anche la seconda parte, dove si dice che anche io tecnicone intollerante devo adattarmi alla realta', il che fa un male cane.Ma giusto per dare un altro contributo alla riflessione: la logica che siamo per deformazione costretti ad adoperare e' l'unico linguaggio in comune agli esseri umani senzienti. Purtroppo non a tutti. A occhio, circa il 60% degli esseri umani (il 40% scarso nei paesi di controriforma come il nostro) sa comunicare in "logico"; gli altri non sanno parlare in quella lingua, e non e' che parlino tra loro una lingua comune: sono divisi in centomila categorie mentali diverse. Esseri umani sbagliati? Assolutamente no! Senza quelle persone, che pensano per emozioni e sintesi, anziche' per calcolo e analisi, non avremmo poesia, film, le lasagne e il luna park.E ancora: dire logico non basta, perche' ci sono 100 modi logici di risolvere un problema, ma restano tutti logici (magari qualcuno un po' piu' efficiente, qualcuno meno, machissene...). E ci sono 100.000 modi non logici di (non) risolvere un problema. La cosa veramente difficile da fare capire, a noi stessi prima e all'utonto dopo, quando e' che siamo di fronte ad una idea "non logica" o ad una logica diversa da quella che adotteremmo noi.Il nostro lavoro ha un inconveniente: mentre chi lavora la terra puo' sbagliarsi di un metro e il grano cresce ugualmente; mentre chi lavora in edilizia puo' sbagliarsi di un centimetro e la casa sta in piedi; mentre chi lavora il legno puo' sbagliarsi di un millimetro e non succede niente; mentre chi lavora in meccanica puo' sbagliarsi di un micron e l'olio gli da' la tolleranza necessaria... Nel nostro lavoro NO! Una minima svista ha effetti che possono essere innocui come devastanti.Il tutto per dire: non solo dovremmo riconoscere un utonto da un logico, ma anche che tipo di logico e che tipo di utonto abbiamo davanti.PS: ma... quelli che fanno un altro mestiere se li pongono tutti 'sti problemi nei confronti del cliente?

Re: La logica e' un linguaggio
> tolleranza necessaria... Nel nostro lavoro NO!> Una minima svista ha effetti che possono essere> innocui come> devastanti.> > Il tutto per dire: non solo dovremmo riconoscere> un utonto da un logico, ma anche che tipo di> logico e che tipo di utonto abbiamo> davanti.La logica aristotelica va bene solo in matematica o poco più, quasi tutte le tue conoscenze e i tuoi ragionamenti non sono logici.Nel mondo reale, non astratto, non esiste quasi nessuna affermazione logicamente vera, ma più o meno rappresentativa della realtà.Se fossi un logico non potresti per esempio mai affermare che il sangue è rosso,perché se vai a controllarlo vedrai che non sarà mai un RGB FF0000, e il suo grado di somiglianza al rosso puro è un valore discreto, infinitesimale che non potrai mai tradurre con una sequenza finita di 0 e 1.Se fossi un logico quindi dovresti affermare che il sangue non è rosso, ma nemmeno rosso scuro, e nemmeno rosso chiaro, potresti solo rispondere con dei non è vero ...Dato che pure tu non sei logico, adotti delle semplificazioni della realtà, e dici che una cosa è rossa se il suo spettro rientra in un range, tralaltro variabile, a seconda del grado della tua pignoleria/precisione di quel momento.Non esistono i logici e gli utonti, ma persone più o meno precise, e non direi proprio che quelle precise sono concentrate nell'IT.

Consideriamo anche che ...
Circa il 90% dei nostri simili ha un QI inferiore a 100, e riescono a schiantarsi in automobile facendo curve sotto la pioggia a 140 all'ora.In realtà l'utonto è semplicemente la persona poco intelligente e poco attenta alla realtà: quella a cui ripeti 100 volte di non scaricare tutta la XXXXX da internet e di non clickare su qualunque link XXXXX gli capiti. Ma che, immancabilmente, dopo al massimo 30 gg ha già la macchina impestata.O che vuole assolutamente che tu gli spieghi qualcosa con la complessità paragonabile alla deriva dei continenti, ma che deve essere capito in meno di 2 minuti ... utonti, insomma.Categoria che io estendo a TUTTA la realtà, e non solo all'informatica....

Re: Consideriamo anche che ...
Essendo QI 100 (per definizione) la media sulla popolazione, direi che è più probabile che si sia 50% sotto e 50% sopra.

non è solo l'informatica
quella dell'utonto è un'attitudine mentale che si estende in tutti i campi della vita....io ho a che fare con i computer da quando ero piccolo, praticamente si può dire che sono cresciuto a pane e computer....ho visto i primi gingilli homebrew, fino alle moderne architetture gpgpufrancamente non ragiono come una cpu e non mi scandalizza il modo di ragionare approssimativo della gente comune....sarà forse dovuto alla mia specializzazione in robotica e IA? mah forse si...quello che però mi fa saltare i nervi del comportamento degli utonti, è il loro modo di essere passivi di fronte ai problemi....un modo d'essere che notavo al liceo tra quelli che "la matematica non fa per noi" e che ritrovo oggi nel campo informaticoinsomma perchè mai l'utonto di fronte all'impossibilità di trovare l'icona di IE non va alla ricerca di una cosa nominata browser oppure "accedi ad internet" o ancora "scarica dalla rete"....voglio dire, se gli cambi l'icona s'impallano, si fermano, non cercano, non esplorano lo spazio di oggetti che è sotto i loro occhilo stesso accade con i problemi matematici...non analizzano, non scompongono, non cercano di metter su una soluzione...si fermano e aspettano che qualcuno gli dica come farequesto non è un problema informatico dunque, ma un problema di totale mancanza di creatività, di capacità esplorativa e induttività

Re: non è solo l'informatica
Concordo pienamente. Ho solo una cosa da aggiungere che e' allo stesso tempo una riflessione personale e un consiglio alle nuove generazioni.Questo e' un gioco che si puo' solo perdere: l'unico modo per vincere e' non giocare.Sono arrivato a questa convinzione, facendo questo mestiere, ormai quasi quindici anni fa. E' stata una vera fortuna aver avuto in tempo questa illuminazione.;-)Orfheo.-----------------------------------------------------------Modificato dall' autore il 06 marzo 2009 11.41-----------------------------------------------------------

Re: non è solo l'informatica
anch'io, a volte, trovo noiose alcune cose, addirittura nel mio stesso settore...ma hai notato che c'è gente che trova noioso tutto e sempre?non è nemmeno questione di metodo scientifico, è una questione di pura e semplice curiosità e voglia di indagare nelle cose che ci circondano

Re: non è solo l'informatica
ah io trovo noiose in egual modo cose del mio settore e di altri ambiti, per cui :-Dma nn mi preoccupo... è normale.E' normale che ognuno abbia suoi obiettivi e ambizioni... Quello di cui molti vanno alla ricerca e che hanno come obiettivo della loro vita e carriera, io spesso lo vedo come fallimento, e viceversa magari.cmq credo che la curiosità sia dovuta anche agli stati emotivi in cui la gente si trova... più "si sta male" e meno si ha curiosità e voglia di apprendere. IMHO

ah...se non ci fossero gli utonti!
noi di chi potremmo ridere tra uno stress e l'altro ? Li per lì alcune loro espressioni o "uscite" ci fanno andare fuori di testa... ma dopo riflettendoci riusciamo anche a costruirci sopra un teatrino che ci fa spaccare dalle risate....lunga vita agli "utonti" altrimenti .... ci licenziano ,ovvio ! non serviremmo più a nulla se si mettono a fare quello che noi sappiamo fare...buon week-end a tutti

I due lati del cervello
Io ho ed ho avuto a che fare con gli utonti dal lontano 1983, non erano definiti con un termine come adesso, ma ne facevano già parte, ho potuto constatare che nella gran parte dei casi si tratta di una predisposizione genetica mentale, a un certo punto il cervello si "specializza" su uno dei due rami principali, o vai sul logico, matematica disegno tecnico e geografico, o vai sull'artistico, disegno artistico, poesia, creatività.Alla società servono entrambe le categorie, altrimenti saremmo "poveri" di arte o di logica, poi in rari casi "geni", le cose si evolvono in entrambe le direzioni con ottimi risultati, infine aimè, e c'è son tanti "troppi" che non si evolvono in nessuna delle due.Quindi nella mia classifica, ci sono due categorie di utonti, la prima è "l'utonto informatico" che sostanzialmente non gli frega niente di capire perchè ha altri interessi creativi e mi sta pure simpatico, sono persone solari, volendo un po bizzarre per noi IT, ma sempre degni del massimo rispetto in quanto "pensanti", la seconda categoria invece è l'utonto, punto, utonto sempre, anche fuori dal nostro campo, sono quelli che non sanno cambiarsi nemmeno una lampadina del bagno, a casa loro non esiste un cacciavite, tanto non saprebbero usarlo, bene a quella classe di persone non serve nemmeno spiegare le cose, tanto non ci arrivano, io una volta gli scrissi un vademecum delle cose da fare e non fare a un recidivo, bene dopo l'ennesimo caso di stupidagine cronica e dopo avergli chiesto come mai non avesse fatto come era scritto nel vademecum...ebbi una risposta disarmante, "perchè dovevo leggerlo?"....Per rapportarsi con l'utenza, prima dovete capire con che utonto avete a che fare, poi agite di conseguenza, non siete degli Dei, quindi non potete fare dei miracoli, un utonto informatico lo potete erudire e alla fine vi potrà persino stupire, un utonto no, andata gli risolvete il problema e uscite, non serve spiegare, sarebbe solo tempo perso inultimente!!! P.S. Nella gran parte dei casi l'utonto non vi chiederà nemmeno cosa ha causato il "malfunzionamento" ma userà una frase del tipo "a lasci, non mi stia a spiegare, tanto non ne capisco niente!!"

c'è anche il superutonto!
il superutonto crede di saper usare il PICCIe soprattutto crede che cosa sia l'informatica nell'azienda lui conosce le ultime XXXXXXXt.. pardon gadget sw/hw ;usciti sul mercato e consiglia di installarli a tutti i colleghirisultato , il bloatware invade l'azienda e il "sistemista" è considerato un fossilei server , non servono ,secondo il superutonto ...basta un n hd da 10 terabyte da attaccare via usbil backup, è fuori moda ,la condivisione dell'informazione è un'idiozia,ognu utonto deve caricare la rubrica aziendale personalmente in uno di quei programmini bloatware di cui sopra , rigidamente incompatibili anche tra di loroogni anno che passa i superutonti aumentanoe spesso ci sono utonti con cugini/amici/nipoti superutontiche ne sanno più di te che lavori da più di ventanni nel settoreio ho deciso ...quando non ce la farò più a sopportarli ..apro una pizzeria !

Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
e verranno anche li, a spiegarti come si prepara l'impasto migliore.Glielo ha detto il loro cuggino :pNon c'e' scampo. Nessuna speranza 8)

Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
e verranno anche li, a spiegarti come si prepara l'impasto migliore.Glielo ha detto il loro cuggino :pNon c'e' scampo. Nessuna speranza 8)

Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
sorry per doppio postconnessione di m**da

Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
è colpa tua! Dovevi cliccare il monitor con l'alluce sinistro per inviare bene il post! Me la detto mio cuggino, lui si che se ne intende!(rotfl)

Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
- Scritto da: anonimo jettatore> il superutonto crede di saper usare il PICCI> e soprattutto crede che cosa sia l'informatica> nell'azienda> > > lui conosce le ultime XXXXXXXt.. pardon gadget> sw/hw> ;> usciti sul mercato e consiglia di installarli a> tutti i> colleghi> > risultato , il bloatware invade l'azienda e il> "sistemista" è considerato un> fossile> > i server , non servono ,secondo il superutonto ...> basta un n hd da 10 terabyte da attaccare via usb> > il backup, è fuori moda ,> > la condivisione dell'informazione è un'idiozia,> ognu utonto deve caricare la rubrica aziendale> personalmente> > in uno di quei programmini bloatware di cui sopra> , rigidamente incompatibili anche tra di> loro> > > ogni anno che passa i superutonti aumentano> e spesso ci sono utonti con cugini/amici/nipoti> superutonti> che ne sanno più di te che lavori da più di> ventanni nel> settore> > io ho deciso ...> quando non ce la farò più a sopportarli ..> apro una pizzeria !Io invece vado a fare il gelataio. All'estero.

Lingua
E una banale questione di linguaggio, è una problema che c'è in tutti i lavori.Che so medico o farmacista devono tradurre in parole semplici e spiegarti il tuo problema.So what?Magari ... essere meno arroganti aiuta.

Re: Lingua
Si ma stranamente quando il medico consiglia una cosa, tutti la fanno, quanto un IT fa lo stesso, non ti ascoltano o fanno addirittura l'opposto, sul bugiardino c'è scritto tra le altre cose l'orario di somministrazione del farmaco, per es. dopo i pasti, il paziente puntualmente dopo assunzione di cibo prende la medicina, se invece noi diciamo,svuota la chache di internet usando questo collegamto, dopo clikki qui e fai un defrag, una volta al mese, loro non lo faranno mai, allora tu lo farai fare in automatico, loro si lamentaranno per gli rallenta il pc anche se lo imposti alle 4 del mattino, quindi... le cose non sono paragonabili!!!!

Re: Lingua
- Scritto da: Zinco> E una banale questione di linguaggio, è una> problema che c'è in tutti i> lavori.> Che so medico o farmacista devono tradurre in> parole semplici e spiegarti il tuo> problema.Gia. Ma la differenza è che la maggior parte della gente non va in giro leccando tutto quello che trova per vedere se funziona bene ...> So what?> Magari ... essere meno arroganti aiuta.Magari aiuterebbe un filo di cervello in più di quello della media.

Re: Comunicazione e frustrazione
Ti quoto in tutto, la cominucazione ci deve essere sempre, bisogna avere l'ulmità di capire, che all'altro di questo che stai per dirgli, non gli interessa nulla, cercare di usare esempi pratici, lo faccio normalmente, usando macchine o attrezzi da cucina come esempi, ma se poi dopo il ripetersi sempre degli stessi incovenienti, ti viene da pensare, ci fa o ci è?, non gliene frega niente perchè sa che dopo gli risolvo io il problema o non ci arriva?Queste domande penso che ce le siamo posti tutti, peggio sono quelli che vogliono aver ragione anche quando hanno palesemente torto, alcuni hanno scritto ma tu devi metterli in condizione di non poter fare determinate cose, vero in alcuni casi, falso in altri, se uno crea una cartella chimata A e ci infila tutti i file che incominciano con A e tutte le cartelle che iniziano per A, ma tu cosa ci puoi fare?Alla scemenza non esiste confine, alla fantasia nemmeno, quella che per noi sarebbe inpensabile "ordinare le cartelle e raggrupparle per lettera" per un altro può sembrare geniale, per lui può essere una cosa che gli altri non hanno "percepito" che lui vuole ottimizzare, cosa gli dici a uno così quando il pc non trova più i profili?, gli potrai spiegare che le cartelle se sono state messe così c'è un motivo, ma non potrai mai fermare la sua "creatività", di conseguenza serve una base di professionalità, seguita da una sempre buona dose di educazione, rapportasi al loro livello con esempi pratici di vita quotidiana spiegando il perchè è avvenuto questo o quello, ma alla fine la dote principale rimane la rassegnazione, sai che dopo aver rieducato un utonto, ne saranno nati 10 nel frattempo, che saranno "cretivi con i loro pc" e che tu come "qualunque ruolo" non potrai MAI calcolare tutte le scemenze possibili eseguibili su un computer, che anche se ti ascolteranno dopo 10 minuti non si ricorderranno più niente di quello che gli hai detto e faranno altre cose creative con il pc, quindi va bene tutto, prevenzione ed educazione, misto ad insegnamento, ma la dote principale deve essere la rassegnazione, almeno dopo 26 anni nel settore io mi sento così.

Re: Comunicazione e frustrazione
> ma la dote principale deve essere la> rassegnazione, almeno dopo 26 anni nel settore io> mi sento> così.concordo abbastanza sul resto del post, ma questa parte e' desolante. Mi ha veramente intristito.Intendiamoci, purtroppo concordo ma mi chiedo:ma quando e' sucXXXXX che la rassegnazione e' diventata una dote necessaria per poter lavorare?Come siamo messi?:'(:'(

Re: Comunicazione e frustrazione
- Scritto da: ExtraTComplimenti per l'analisi, ma...> Se un ottimo programmatore,> che non sa nulla di chimica, si mette a scrivere> un algoritmo su come calcolare i pH, è bene che> PRIMA chieda ad un chimico (meglio se a più di> uno) che cosa è e se si mangia = adeguata> preparazione, oppure lavoro in team. Un ottimo programmatore non si mette a scrivere un algoritmo per calcolare i pH, perche' si e' alzato in un certo modo la mattina.Se lo fa e' perche' qualcuno glielo ha chiesto.E quel qualcuno gli dice anche la formula da utilizzare.

Re: Comunicazione e frustrazione
scusa per il "caso particolare" che ho utilizzato in quanto è problema che ho risolto (da chimico) dopo scontro con programmatore (ingegnere). Mi serviva "semplicemente" di calcolare A PRIORI il pH di una miscela di tamponi, note concentrazioni e pKa. Ordinario all'università = risponde impossibile. Programmatore: le serie non convergevano mai (pH = -log[H] dove H è lo ione idrogeno, poi ci sono una serie di condizioni al contorno altrimenti si debbono utilizzare grandezze termodinamiche di non facile reperibilità). Equazioni disponibili: stechiometria, legge di Ostwald. Ci ho messo una settimana, poi ho risolto il problema con un foglio di calcolo, utilizzando le celle come variabili e variabili collegate nelle formule (NON essendo programmatore ho utilizzato gli strumenti a disposizione). Ho salvato il modello del foglio di calcolo, ho spedito il floppy all'ordinario che aveva ritenuto il quesito impossibile, la verifica in laboratorio ha stabilito che il calcolo era preciso nell'ambito della seconda cifra decimale. Ho dato un altro floppy all'ingegnere, per vedere se riusciva a cavarne fuori qualche cosa, in fin dei conti era un sistema di equazioni collegate... non ho avuto più notizie. Personalmente ho continuato ad usare il mio modesto strumento quando ne ho avuto necessità, un programma "vero" potrebbe fare comodo dove si preparino soluzioni tamponate ad un pH predefinito. Ma il programmatore era in grado di operare i passaggi che ho fatto io? di matematica ne sapeva più di me, programmazione anni luce avanti, solo comprensione dei meccanismi chimici zero, anche davanti alle equazioni reimpostate per poter essere risolte. Magari un altro programmatore... che capisse un poco di chimica?scrivere un libro o una poesia non è solo digitare delle lettere, ma è avere un'idea... un programmatore secondo me deve essere in grado di scrivere il libro o la poesia, anceh se scrive con la matita.

meno male che ci sono gli intelligentoni
questo articolo ci mancava proprio!Meno male che ci sono gli intelligentoni come te che mandano avanti il mondo...

Utonti
Anch'io, nel mio piccolo sono il responsabile IT di una aziena che da sue sedi, mi trovo ad affrontare diversi utonti, ed alnci arrivati recentemente sono dei veri "maestri".Io finora vado vanti con esempi tipo "non mi puoi chiedere di far andare una 500 vecchia di 40 anni a 200 h/h in prima!!!!".Le nuove leve non vogliono proprio capire, io mando mail e quando si riescono a capire che sbagliano gli faccio notare il tempo perso non dandomi retta.Addirittura è dal 15 febbraio che aspetto che mi dica quando posso fare un'installazione di un piccolo sw, io la sollecito via mail ogni 2 gg, lei non mi risponde e ogni lunedì mi dice che il problema è urgente!!! ovviamente sia io e che lei mettiamo in cc i capi.E io lascio andare avanti...

Qualunquismo
Caro Cubasia,sono un lettore di Punto Informatico ormai da molti anni e anche, seppur giovane, "PROFESSIONISTA IT".Trovo che questo articolo, come tanti altri che hanno lo hanno preceduto, trasudi di qualunquismo e luoghi comuni per suscitare una qualche reazione nei lettori dei suoi scritti (che evidentemente sono tutti in qualche modo coinvolti nell'IT). Senza dilungarmi eccessivamente vorrei farle notare che scrivere articoli in cui si descrive per filo e per segno realtà indiscusse del mondo tencologico/informatico, senza in NESSUN modo trarre conclusioni non porta perfettamente a nulla. Ormai ci ha abituato ad articoli in cui si parla di tutti i possibili luoghi comuni : "L'informatica è una scienza ma il mondo non sembra capirlo", "Il professionista informatico non viene pagato abbastanza", "La qualità vs la quantità". Mi sembra strano come mai non sia ancora stato detto che "Non esistono più le mezze stagioni" o che "Non ci sono più i tempi di una volta". Non sarebbe più costruttivo parlare di problematiche REALI, confrontandosi e cercando vie di fuga da questa sempre più incresciosa realtà in cui ci troviamo? Che senso ha parlare di UTONTI e TROLL? E' logico e naturale che quando si incontrano un TECNICO ed un UTENTE (anche meccanici, carrozzieri, odontotecnici ecc ecc) accade quello che ha prolissamente descritto nel suo articolo. Mi perdonerà sicuramente se con doveroso rispetto la informo che, per quanto mi riguarda, potrebbero mettere chiunque a scrivere gli articoli che lei ci propina ogni venerdì.

Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato> Trovo che questo articolo, come tanti altri che> hanno lo hanno preceduto, trasudi di qualunquismo> e luoghi comuni per suscitare una qualche> reazione nei lettori dei suoi scritti (che> evidentemente sono tutti in qualche modo> coinvolti nell'IT).Grande ! Scrivi proprio bene, dove posso leggere gli articoli scritti da te ?

Re: Qualunquismo
Senza accendere una discussione inutile non facevo riferimento alla FORMA, bensì al contenuto.Io non essendo in grado di scrivere articoli interessanti STO ALLA LARGA DAL GIORNALISMO, ( E DALLE RISPOSTE INUTILI) peccato che non tutti siano della mia opinioni.

Re: Qualunquismo
Scusami, non avevo visto che sei un collezionista di post inutili, arroganti e privi di senso (se non quello di fomentare discussioni inutili). Appurato questo puoi continuare a parlare da solo per quanto mi riguarda

Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato> Senza accendere una discussione inutile non> facevo riferimento alla FORMA, bensì al> contenuto.> Io non essendo in grado di scrivere articoli> interessanti STO ALLA LARGA DAL GIORNALISMO, ( E> DALLE RISPOSTE INUTILI) peccato che non tutti> siano della mia opinioni.Ecco bravo stacci alla larga, ti suggerisco un metodo : non leggere gli autori che non ti piacciono e gia' conosci.(rotfl)

LE TRE CARTE DI CUBASIA
1 - L´introduzione2 - La storiella3 - Il sindacatoMannaggia mannaggia, come si dice? La lingua batte dove il dente duole!Vuoi proprio raccattare disperati, 1 milione di disperati...perché alla fine sei un business man, e sai perfettamente che una tessera annuale da 10 euro riesci a strappargliela, il ché fa 10 milioni di euro l´anno...biricchino :D

interfaccia
Quando un utente, non mi va di chiamarlo utonto, non riesce ad usare un programma (o il sistema operativo) il più delle volte il problema è nel programmatore che non è riuscito a dare a un sistema complesso un'interfaccia semplice logica e comprensibile.Spesso questo succede perchè dare un'interfaccia semplice è molto complesso e dispendioso in termini di tempo e risorse.Si fa prima a far fare il lavoro pesante all'utente.Un utente è per definizione non è non esperto di informatica e non lo deve diventare, lui fa un altro lavoro, per lui il computer è uno strumento e gli serve per raggiungere un suo obbiettivo che con il computer non c'entra nulla.Un esempio classico fu l'inerfaccia grafica del mac, poi copiata da tutti gli altri, che fu progettata da degli psicologi e non da dei programmatori.Quando i programmatori invece di acoltare gli utenti si arrogano il diritto di decidere come devono essere fatte le cose e giocano a fare gli psicologi allora sono guai.

Re: interfaccia
Verissimo, ma l'utente dovrebbe cominciare a capire che il PC non è un sistema banale come un frullatore: parlando proprio di interfaccia, i moderni sistemi operativi desktop e i programmi che vi girano sopra sono frutto di anni e anni di tentativi di semplificazione esasperati, per permettere a tutti di saper gestire sistemi complessi senza grosse conoscenze informatiche.È un po' come se stessimo pilotando un 767 con i comandi della nostra automobile.Questa cosa a noi informatici va sicuramente bene, e non smetteremo neanche di lavorarci su per rendere i comandi ancora più semplici, magari simili a quelli di una bicicletta; chiediamo solo che gli utenti si rendano conto di questo sforzo e non si sentano in diritto di considerarsi a loro volta esperti informatici solo perché sanno come configurarsi il client di posta.

Re: interfaccia
- Scritto da: Dev> Verissimo, ma l'utente dovrebbe cominciare a> capire che il PC non è un sistema banale come un> frullatore: parlando proprio di interfaccia, i> moderni sistemi operativi desktop e i programmi> che vi girano sopra sono frutto di anni e anni di> tentativi di semplificazione esasperati, per> permettere a tutti di saper gestire sistemi> complessi senza grosse conoscenze> informatiche.> È un po' come se stessimo pilotando un 767 con i> comandi della nostra> automobile.> Questa cosa a noi informatici va sicuramente> bene, e non smetteremo neanche di lavorarci su> per rendere i comandi ancora più semplici, magari> simili a quelli di una bicicletta; chiediamo solo> che gli utenti si rendano conto di questo sforzo> e non si sentano in diritto di considerarsi a> loro volta esperti informatici solo perché sanno> come configurarsi il client di> posta.Non mi sono spiegato allora, l'esperto informatico deve svolgere il suo lavoro nella produzione e configurazione dei programmi PRIMA che questi arrivino in mano all'utente, se poi questi sono fatti come si deve l'esperto non deve più essere necessario

Re: Siamo tutti utonti
- Scritto da: anonimo jettatore> > Si dice che Einstein non sapesse allacciarsi le> > scarpe quindi era l'utonto del suo calzolaio (e> > non> > solo).a proposito di Heinstein; frasi celebri :"Tutta la nostra conoscenza ; paragonata alla realtà, è primitiva e infantile ... tuttavia è i bene più prezioso di cui disponiamo !"oppure :"ho scelto la Fisica , perchè per la matematica non ero portato !"

è la normalità
Per la verità questa cosa accade praticamente con qualunque professione. Provi a farsi spiegare da un astrofisico qualcosa o da un oncologo o da un sinologo o da un filosofo e probabilmente anche dal meccanico sotto casa. mah... E' ovvio che se non si è professionisti del settore si farà fatica a capire.

Che tipo è l'utonto
L'utonto è chiunque sia dotato di sufficienteintelligenza da capire per tempo che l'informatica portaall'esaurimento.Per cui se ne guarda bene dall'ascoltarci.La persona più utonta che conosca è un medico.

Utonti ? Magari...
A me capita di lavorare per "utonti", pero' non mi sembra che siano tanto tonti perche' i veri tonti siamo noi (in questo caso l'azienda per cui lavoro) che non fa pagare opportunamente tutte le cavolate (ovvero cambi di requisiti assurdi) che gli utonti vogliono.

CUBASIA SEI MITICO
... sti utonti hanno rotto le p..!! Va be' che pagano (in ritardo) ma è ora che escano dalle caverne, siamo nel 2009!

Re: Siamo tutti utonti
- Scritto da: paoloholzl> Persino a scuola ci sono oggi i genitori che> vogliono insegnare ai maestri il loro> lavoro.> Per non parlare dei genitori con l'allenatore> sportivo dei> figli.> Oggi manca un concetto, l'umiltà, 'io so che non> so'.> > Quelli a cui questo principio manca non sono gli> utonti, sono> i..> > tonti > > punto e basta.> :-)Verissimo!

utonti
sta cosa degli utonti la so da anni e anni e ci vivo grazie agli utonti...non sono d accordo sul fatto di adeguare la comunicazione all utonto....primo non ho tempo da perdere e nella mia esperienza anche l utonto piu' utonto se vuole comprare una cosa prima o poi capisce come, perche' ci si accanisce cercando di superare i propri limiti di utonto e quindi svolgo anche il compito di consapevolizzare l ' utonto del fatto che e' utonto.Coloro che si incavolano di termini come utonti e' perche' sono utonti...solo i non utonti non si adirano. Definire una persona utonto non e' razzismo ma solo descrizione della maggioranza dei bipedi parlanti.L' ultima che ho sentita da un utonta che si informava sul mio lavoro...ah...allora apro un blog e ci faccio i soldi con la pubblicita'....gli ho risposto si triccke traccke e castagnole e' arrivato il tabaccaio.

Re: Colpa nostra.
esattamente, sono perfettamente d'accordo, uno apre un documento e poi lavorando inserisce all'interno qualsiasi cosa, frammenti di spreadsheet, disegno vettroriale, campi di un database, pagine di Mathematica, documenti musicali, video, etc.. etc..mai provato ragtime?http://www.ragtime.de/start.html?lang_id=enè un inizio

Re: Colpa nostra.
Ehm, Windows 3.1 aveva già il supporto per roba del genere e si chiama OLE :o ...E i programmi che lo supportano sono tantini

Re: Colpa nostra.
si certo è una specie di quello che stavo dicendo io la differenza è che dopo tanti anni uno continua a usare i formati XLS, ipg, etc invece dovrebbe usarne uno solo es. DOC e tutto dovrebbe stare dentro lì

Re: Colpa nostra.
- Scritto da: pietro> si certo è una specie di quello che stavo dicendo> io la differenza è che dopo tanti anni uno> continua a usare i formati XLS, ipg, etc invece> dovrebbe usarne uno solo es. DOC e tutto dovrebbe> stare dentro lìSai vero che il formato .doc cambia ad ogni versione di office vero ?

Re: Colpa nostra.
un momento, tu però parli di macchine in grado di capire...insomma tipo una segreteria, che tu gli dici "batta a macchina questa lettera" e lei parte e scriveinutile dire che siamo molto lontani da questo traguardoqualcosa si può già fare ma bisogna ripensare completamente il software....deve sparire il concetto di programma/proXXXXX, così come le distinzioni tra os, middleware, application software e compagniadev'esserci un meccanismo tipo un motore di ricerca, per cui l'utente scrive "voglio scrivere una lettera" e il motore gli risponde visualizzando una lista di icone corrispondenti ai componenti capaci di scrivere lettere....altro punto dev'essere l'embedding di componenti all'interno di altre finestre/applicazioni e l'automazione remota dei componenti stessiin questo modo ogni software può manipolare qualsiasi tipo di oggetto

Re: Colpa nostra.
- Scritto da: pabloski> un momento, tu però parli di macchine in grado di> capire...> > insomma tipo una segreteria, che tu gli dici> "batta a macchina questa lettera" e lei parte e> scrive> > inutile dire che siamo molto lontani da questo> traguardo> > qualcosa si può già fare ma bisogna ripensare> completamente il software....deve sparire il> concetto di programma/proXXXXX, così come le> distinzioni tra os, middleware, application> software e> compagnia> > dev'esserci un meccanismo tipo un motore di> ricerca, per cui l'utente scrive "voglio scrivere> una lettera" e il motore gli risponde> visualizzando una lista di icone corrispondenti> ai componenti capaci di scrivere> lettere....> > altro punto dev'essere l'embedding di componenti> all'interno di altre finestre/applicazioni e> l'automazione remota dei componenti> stessi> > in questo modo ogni software può manipolare> qualsiasi tipo di> oggettonon è necessario un OS semantico che comprenda un comando tipo "voglio scrivere una lettera" quello che si diceva riguarda solo l'embedding, in pratica dovrebbe esistere un solo formato di documento e all'interno potrebbe agire poi qualunque applicazione, da excel a photoshop, da Mathematica a Access etc..

Re: Colpa nostra.
Sbaglio o ci hanno provato con OLE (e poi COM), Kpart, Bonobo e compagnia bella?Persino su Amiga c'era una roba che si chiamava Hotlink (se non mi ricordo male).Però puoi astrarre il concetto di oggetto quanto ti pare, esisterà sempre un'implementazione di quell'oggetto che non avevi considerato.Per esempio un utente potrebbe voler embeddare un programma in AmigaE che prende dati da un database Access, all'interno di un documento di testo e vederlo girare come slide di Impress o Powerpoint.Sarebbe molto bello poterglielo permettere, ma ho idea che l'unico modo sia chea) i programmi interessati sappiano già che potrebbero girare in questi contesti e siano progettati all'abbisognab) che per l'appunto ogni programma crei il suo oggetto in modo che l'utente possa embeddarlo all'interno di un oggetto "padre" che li contiene tutti.A questo punto, forse il germe di tutto questo potrebbe essere qualcosa di simile alle porte Rexx, tramite il quale applicazioni che nemmeno si conoscono potrebbero comunicare e controllarsi a vicenda con un protocollo standard.Ovviamente il tutto elevato all'ennesima potenza per garantire la flessibilità che si richiede.Poi potrei aver frainteso completamente il tuo post.Se fosse questo il caso, mi scuso ;)

Re: Colpa nostra.
no hai ragione è quello che dicevo io, l'unica differenza è che dovrebbe essere l'OS a OBBLIGARE i programmi a dover girare all'interno di un unico sistema.O li fai così o nisba.

Re: Colpa nostra.
A sto punto fai prima a dire te al PC cosa vuoi :D e non serve più una persona "umana".

Il mondo di Cubasia
Il mondo che Cubasia continua a dipingere è un mondo di aziende perfide, clienti finali utonti, e in mezzo dei geni incompresi usati, spremuti e buttati, il suo potenziale bacino di riferimento, qualora decidesse di scendere in campo (politico o sindacale).Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze dell'utente, non viceversa!

Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik> Il mondo che Cubasia continua a dipingere è un> mondo di aziende perfide, clienti finali utonti,> e in mezzo dei geni incompresi usati, spremuti e> buttati, il suo potenziale bacino di riferimento,> qualora decidesse di scendere in campo (politico> o> sindacale).> > Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da> utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente> tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto> è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il> prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze> dell'utente, non viceversa !Infatto : guarda l'automobile, quasiasi bambino piuo' prendere e guidarne una, mica servono corsi per imparare...

Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_gennaio_07/bus_bambino_sei_anni_auto_scontro_d2887af8-dce3-11dd-8a8f-00144f02aabc.shtml:D

Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
> Infatto : guarda l'automobile, quasiasi bambino> piuo' prendere e guidarne una, mica servono corsi> per> imparare...Ah ah aaaahCon l'auto puoi ammazzare delle persone, renderle menomate a vita, ... per semplice ignoranza.Un PC devi scaraventarlo volontariamente adosso a qualcuno perché possa produrre danni fisici versi terzi.

Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.Fatti fare un corso da Cubasia.

Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik> Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da> utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente> tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto> è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il> prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze> dell'utente, non> viceversa!Ho letto tanti post in questa discussione che cercano di definire esattamente il reale concetto di "utonto".Un paragone che ho trovato inizialmente ben azzeccato è quello tra IT-utente e medico-paziente: si diceva che se un medico ti fa una diagnosi, tu obbedisci in silenzio seguendo le sue prescrizioni, mentre se un informatico ti da un parere, l'"utonto" di solito lo ignora pensando di essere a sua volta un esperto, convinto di avere le competenze adeguate per cavarsela da solo.Ho avuto curiosamente un'esperienza che confuta questa tesi, proprio oggi che avevo dei parenti a pranzo, e riguardava il vaccino per l'influenza. Premetto che io stesso ho fatto il vaccino quest'anno, dato che ho avuto problemi respiratori negli ultimi tempi, e che quest'anno in effetti non ho avuto il minimo problema con la sindrome infulenzale.Tra questi miei parenti, invece, pare che fosse opinione comune che il suddetto vaccino è assolutamente inutile, o peggio ancora controindicato, in quanto hanno tutti più o meno uniformemente raccontato la stessa esperienza, e cioè che hanno avuto più problemi con l'influenza negli anni in cui non hanno fatto alcun vaccino che negli anni in cui invece lo hanno fatto.Ora, io non sono un medico, questo è ovvio, ma mi è sembrato di rivedere tante esperienze raccolte in questo forum, in cui magari l'utente a pranzo con parenti racconta amabilmente: "Ho avuto più problemi con il pc da quando ho installato l'antivirus XYZ, che mi ha consigliato l'esperto di informatica, che prima. Da quando lo ho disinstallato, mi trovo di nuovo benissimo!".A questo punto, sapendo da professionista dell'IT quanto un AV sia necessario per l'utilizzo in rete di un moderno pc (quantomeno se vi è installato il so desktop più diffuso), e quanto il vaccino per l'influenza abbia almeno per il mio caso avuto efficacia, quello che mi chiedo è quanto il "non-esperto" possa sentirsi veramente in diritto di screditare un'opinione diffusa nell'ambito degli "esperti" basandosi solo sulle sue esperienze dirette.Credo che una persona possa decidere di punto in bianco di non dare più retta alle prescrizioni del medico perché tanto si sente abbastanza preparata in medicina da non avere bisogno di consigli da nessuno, anche se magari per lavoro fa l'avvocato/architetto/panettiere/impiegato/sistemista. E che a questo punto il termine "utonto" descriva proprio questo, una persona che per le sue limitate esperienze dirette si senta in diritto di non dare credito ai consigli di un professionista del settore, qualunque settore esso sia. È solo che, come qualcun altro ha già scritto, per il settore informatico è stato trovato un termine preciso, per gli altri (che io sappia) ancora no.

Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
> medico-paziente: si diceva che se un medico ti fa> una diagnosi, tu obbedisci in silenzio seguendo> le sue prescrizioni, mentre se un informatico tiNon è vero che i pazienti seguono sempre i consigli del medico, ce ne sono tanti che continuano a mangiare cibi proibiti, fumare nonostante tumori diagnosticati al polmone, ecc. oppure affidarsi alla medicina alternativa, i fiori di bach, ecc.Quindi concordo con te che pure altrove le prescrizioni non sempre vengono seguite,la differenza è che questo, nel caso del medico, non incide sul rispetto che continua a portare verso il suo paziente.> Ora, io non sono un medico, questo è ovvio, ma mi> è sembrato di rivedere tante esperienze raccolte> in questo forum, in cui magari l'utente a pranzo> con parenti racconta amabilmente: "Ho avuto più> problemi con il pc da quando ho installato> l'antivirus XYZ, che mi ha consigliato l'esperto> di informatica, che prima. Da quando lo ho> disinstallato, mi trovo di nuovo> benissimo!".Riguardo all'amico, non ha tutti i torti, evidentemente l'esperto informatico, il geek gli aveva installato un antivirus esoso di risorse, come il Norton, con scansione completa del PC ad ogni avvio dello stesso. In tali casi l'antivirus si rivela più dannoso del rischio di prendersi un virus.E' qui che dovrebbe entrare in scena l'informatico serio proponendo una soluzione che non rallenti il PC e lo mantenga protetto, per molti potrebbe bastare la scansione all'apertura o al salvataggio dei nuovi file.Mentre i medici o altri professionisti comprendono che "la carne è debole", che è difficile cambiare le abitudini di un paziente o di un cliente, e che comunque le prescrizioni hanno dei costi, per cui bisogna valutare costi e benefici,molti informatici/geek tendono a liquidare il tutto con l'epiteto "utonto".Non è lui a essere tonto, ma il geek che non viene incontro alle esigenze del cliente, e non si sforza di mettersi nei suoi panni.E' inutile che pensiamo di lavorare nel settore più importante di tutti, il contadino, per esempio, fa un lavoro più fondamentale del nostro, lui può anche vivere senza di noi, noi senza di lui moriamo di fame!

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Well, to be honest I think that most viewers of this page are males so let's be honest with each other., http://besplatno-XXXXX-foto-starushek.inline-spb.ru|��������� ����� ���� �������� , http://zhenshhiny-dlya-seksa-v-gorode-breste.inline-spb.ru|������� ��� ����� � ������ ������ , http://colncezashhitnye-ochki-benetton-be-823-r3.iskusstvovedy.ru|C������������� ���� Benetton BE 823 R3 , http://avtomobilnoe-zaryadnoe-ustrojstvo-dlya-acer-travelmate-6000-19.iso-test-x.ru|������������� �������� ���������� ��� Acer TravelMate 6000 19V 4.74A (5.5x1.7) , http://besplatnoe-XXXXX-foto-yunyx-devochek.inline-spb.ru|���������� ����� ���� ���� ������� ,

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That makes me feel gross and puke however Ashley hasn't made any of those so far which I am very proud of hearing., http://elite-bohemia-chexiya-bra-bohemian-decorated-classics-n-520231.islen.ru|Elite Bohemia (�����) ��� Bohemian Decorated Classics N 520/2/31 , http://skachat-chit-aim-dlya-css.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ��� ��� ��� css , http://laminat-classic7-qst-028-dub-sostarennyj-vybelennyj-quick-step.iso-test-x.ru|������� Classic7 QST 028 ��� ����������� ���������� Quick Step , http://skachat-film-noga-cherez-torrent.intimate-world.ru|������� ����� ���� ����� ������� , http://skachat-pesni-ivana-kuchina-besplatno.intimate-world.ru|������� ����� ����� ������ ��������� ,

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I moved around to a lot of different schools growing up, and I wasn't always the popular girl., http://nastennaya-plitka-liberty-beige-cir-ceramiche.iso-test-x.ru|��������� ������ Liberty Beige Cir Ceramiche , http://igrovoj-nabor-disney-princess-v-gostyax-u-princessy-avrora.iskusstvovedy.ru|������� ����� Disney Princess "� ������ � ���������: ������" , http://ukrainskaya-erotika-roliki.inline-spb.ru|���������� ������� ������ , http://skachat-foto-vdv.intimate-world.ru|������� ���� ��� , http://chlen-gej-trax.inline-spb.ru|���� ��� ���� ,

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But she seems to be just horny and that's it however I can read in her eyes a sign that says I want sex right now, tap my ass hard Oh I would do that., http://besplatnoe-XXXXX-video-dlitelnost-3-minuty.informama.ru|���������� ����� ����� ������������ 3 ������ , http://skachat-besplatno-programmy-dlya-web.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ��������� ��������� ��� web , http://besplatnoe-XXXXX-video-roliki-inces.inline-spb.ru|���������� ����� ����� ������ ����� , http://-oki-fotobaraban-ep-cart-c-c5700-43381707.iskusstvovedy.ru| OKI ����������� EP-CART-C-C5700 (43381707) , http://katushka-induktivnosti-jantzen-cross-coil-12-awg-2-mh.iso-test-x.ru|������� ������������� Jantzen Cross Coil 12 AWG 2 mH ,

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I was doing gymnastics in a leotard when wardrobe comes up to me and is like, �It's time., http://seks-devushki-s-sobakoj-video-foto.informama.ru ���� ������� � ������� ����� ���� , http://brelok-dlya-signalizacii-sheriff-zx-940.islen.ru|������ ��� ������������ Sheriff ZX-940 , http://besplatno-skachat-kak-gei-zanimayutsya-XXXXX.inform-chehov.ru|��������� ������� ��� ��� ���������� ����� , http://benzinovyj-generator-genpower-gbs-100-meas.iso-test-x.ru|���������� ��������� GENPOWER GBS 100 MEAS , http://smarttrack-stk-203u-k-usb.iskusstvovedy.ru|SmartTrack STK-203U-K USB,

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One interesting thing I have just recognized about that Jess has a Mercedes Benz SL500., http://skachat-simulyator-avtobusa-2009.intazgbi.ru|������� ��������� �������� 2009 , http://skachat-drug-vokrug-na-telefon.intazgbi.ru|������� ���� ������ �� ������� , http://skachat-uells-chelovek-nevidimka.intazgbi.ru|������� ����� ������� ��������� , http://kae-balzam-dlya-gub-s-maslom-ekzoticheskix-fruktov-i-argany-7-.islen.ru|Kae ������� ��� ��� � ������ ������������ ������� � ������ 7 �� , http://shtatnoe-golovnoe-ustrojstvo-phantom-dvm-3320g-i6-kia-cerato-n.iso-test-x.ru|������� �������� ���������� Phantom DVM-3320G i6 KIA Cerato new ,

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But this is a good picture and I ain't talking about some scary horror photos that will dream you in the worst nightmare., http://kruzhka-striptiz-s-kryshkoj-92055.islen.ru|������ "��������", � �������. 92055 , http://akkumulyator-dlya-sony-hdr-sr8e-np-fh50-original.iso-test-x.ru|����������� ��� Sony HDR-SR8E NP-FH50 ORIGINAL , http://gde-audioknigi-skachat-besplatno-mp3.intazgbi.ru|��� ���������� ������� ��������� mp3 , http://akkumulyator-dlya-nokia-3330-hama-h-39236.islen.ru|����������� ��� Nokia 3330 HAMA H-39236 , http://zhenskij-zad-XXXXX.inform-chehov.ru|������� ��� ����� ,

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Don't be afraid as ain't give a damn about that woman and the only thing that matters to me is that you feel fine., http://skachat-filmy-besplatno-cherez-to.intazgbi.ru|������� ������ ��������� ����� �� , http://skachat-vindovs-xz.intimate-world.ru|������� ������� �� , http://igry-na-telefon-mts-skachat.ioo-sokol.ru|���� �� ������� ��� ������� , http://skovoroda-elektricheskaya-delta-diametr-32-sm.iskusstvovedy.ru|��������� ������������� Delta. �������: 32 �� , http://skachat-besplatno-albom-tixij.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ��������� ������ ����� ,

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I don't know why but when I look at any on those pics of Gabrielle Anwar nude I want to do two things., http://chlenskie-vznosy-v-joshkar-ola.informama.ru �������� ������ � ������-��� , http://mnogofunkcionalnoe-ustrojstvo-mfu-sharp-mx-3610nst.iso-test-x.ru|������������������� ���������� (���) Sharp MX-3610NST , http://seagate-st3300655lw-300gb.iso-test-x.ru|Seagate ST3300655LW 300GB, http://neposedy-byt-chelovekom-skachat.intimate-world.ru|�������� ���� ��������� ������� , http://mts-world-on-mine-skachat.intimate-world.ru|��� world on mine ������� ,

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Even the fact that his is only a movie couldn't stop Jennifer from getting a pleasure., http://referaty-po-etike-skachat-besplatno.intimate-world.ru �������� �� ����� ������� ��������� , http://skachat-temu-iphone-dlya-nokia.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ���� iphone ��� nokia , http://krem-kraska-s-keramidami-5n-svetlyj-shaten-colorsync.iso-test-x.ru|����-������ � ���������� 5N ������� ����� Color.Sync , http://chlen-pryamo-v-popu.informama.ru|���� ����� � ���� , http://vitesse-blinnaya-skovoroda-vs-2253.islen.ru|Vitesse ������� ��������� VS-2253,

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It looks like she is going to piss right about know because all I can see is a hot woman pulling down her pants and bends a bit to the ground., http://skachat-besplatno-igru-resident.intazgbi.ru|������� ��������� ���� resident , http://seks-galerei-s-bolshim-vyborom-razdelov.informama.ru|���� ������� � ������� ������� �������� , http://pesni-gurckoj-proslushat-i-skachat.ioo-sokol.ru|����� ������� ���������� � ������� , http://-kartonperepletnyj.iskusstvovedy.ru| ����������������� , http://zhestokoe-XXXXX-iznasilovanie-smotret-besplatno.informama.ru|�������� ����� ������������� �������� ��������� ,

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Just watching while she is getting in there before a shot and then watching the same process after is just amazing I guess., http://matras-toris-absolut-magnummagnum-120200.islen.ru|������ Toris ABSOLUT MAGNUM/������ 120*200 , http://zhestokoe-bdsm-smotret-onlajn.informama.ru|�������� ���� �������� ������ , http://zhenshhiny-golye-molodye-prostitutki.inform-chehov.ru|������� ����� ������� ����������� , http://chexol-s-remeshkom-dlya-sony-ericsson-xperia-ray-time-kombinir.iso-test-x.ru|����� � �������� ��� Sony Ericsson XPERIA Ray Time ��������������� , http://zhenu-ebut-v-zhopu.informama.ru|���� ���� � ���� ,

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She behaves pretty dirty and I don't think her father know about this video because if he knew we would read in papers that her dad punished Miley., http://skachat-mnogoserijnye-multiki.intazgbi.ru|������� ������������� �������� , http://mobilnye-telefony-prestigio-multiphone-3500-duo-chernyj.iskusstvovedy.ru|��������� �������� Prestigio MultiPhone 3500 DUO (������) , http://akkumulyator-dlya-hp-pavilion-dv6-6c60er-mo06-h2l55aa-original.iskusstvovedy.ru|����������� ��� HP Pavilion dv6-6c60er MO06 H2L55AA ORIGINAL , http://skachat-photoscape-rus-besplatno.intimate-world.ru|������� photoscape rus ��������� , http://zhostkoe-video-XXXXX-roliki-besplatno.inline-spb.ru|������� ����� ����� ������ ��������� ,

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No matter how many times I did my reviews about hot celebrities I will always be surprised by the next sexy babe who is going to be right here., http://seks-vodoleya-i-skorpiona.inform-chehov.ru|���� ������� � ��������� , http://skachat-obrazy-igr-na-kompyuter.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ������ ��� �� ��������� , http://doch-lezhit-na-spine-i-masturbiruet-chto-delat.inline-spb.ru|���� ����� �� ����� � ������������ ��� ������ , http://skachat-draki-na-komp.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ����� �� ���� , http://skachat-igry-nokia-5130-xpressmusic.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ���� nokia 5130 xpressmusic ,

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You just have to give people what they want to see and you may count that Oscar is in your pocket already., http://skachat-utorrent-russkaya-versiya.intazgbi.ru|������� utorrent ������� ������ , http://maugli-erotika-xentaj.inform-chehov.ru|������ ������� ������ , http://astral-skachat-besplatno-bez-sms.ioo-sokol.ru|������ ������� ��������� ��� ��� , http://besplatnoe-XXXXX-video-bez-registracii-besplatno-onlajn.informama.ru|���������� ����� ����� ��� ����������� ��������� ������ , http://coslys-loson-dlya-snyatiya-makiyazha-s-glaz.iso-test-x.ru|Coslys ������ ��� ������ ������� � ���� ,

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If you came here just for nothing I think here is what might get you interested in this website., http://seks-v-islame-skachat.inline-spb.ru|���� � ������ ������� , http://displej-dlya-sony-ericsson-t303-original.iso-test-x.ru|������� ��� Sony Ericsson T303 ORIGINAL , http://seks-vtroyom-foto-vyzilyvanie.inform-chehov.ru|���� ������ ���� ����������� , http://skachat-wwe-12-wii-torrent.intimate-world.ru|������� wwe 12 wii ������� , http://katushka-induktivnosti-mundorf-m-coil-bv-air-core-bl100-12-mh-.iso-test-x.ru|������� ������������� Mundorf M-Coil BV Air-core BL100 1.2 mH 1.0 mm ,

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It is surely not possible to disagree with her but I bet she knows why she is that popular., http://seks-vanne-foto.inform-chehov.ru|���� ����� ���� , http://kak-skachat-igry-na-pc.intimate-world.ru|��� ������� ���� �� pc , http://parkovochnyj-radar-chameleon-cps-403.iso-test-x.ru|����������� ����� Chameleon CPS-403 , http://belye-vorotnichki-3-sezon-skachat.intimate-world.ru|����� ���������� 3 ����� ������� , http://aksessuar-dlya-krepleniya-dopolnitelnogo-akkumulyatora-dlya-ka.iskusstvovedy.ru|��������� ��� ��������� ��������������� ������������ ��� ������ GoPro HD Hero 2 Battery BacPac ,

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If you think you can handle Salma then why don't you read this saying from her first? I am still waiting to meet a man who has more balls than I do., http://zhestkij-seks-s-konem.inline-spb.ru ������� ���� � ����� , http://akkumulyator-dlya-dell-latitude-d400-povyshennoj-emkosti.iso-test-x.ru|����������� ��� Dell Latitude D400 (���������� �������) , http://krem-zhidkij-dlya-tela-talasso-guam.iso-test-x.ru|���� ������ ��� ���� Talasso Guam, http://universalnyj-ekspress-marinator-ves-vmr-10.iso-test-x.ru|������������� �������� ��������� VES VMR 10 , http://nabor-sverl-bosch-2608596859.islen.ru|����� ����� Bosch 2608596859 ,

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isn't that just great? She is my dream and I don't think I would refuse her in anything she asked me to do., http://skachat-the-sims-stories.ioo-sokol.ru|������� the sims stories , http://gimnastki-2-sezon-skachat-torrent.ioo-sokol.ru|��������� 2 ����� ������� ������� , http://garnitura-dlya-sony-ericsson-j230a-hpm-75-original.iso-test-x.ru|��������� ��� Sony Ericsson J230a HPM-75 ORIGINAL , http://besplatnaya-skachka-XXXXX-masturbaciya.inform-chehov.ru|���������� ������ ����� ����������� , http://mokrye-seksualnye-popki.informama.ru|������ ����������� ����� ,

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There are other movies like The Doors, Presidio, Promised Land and Flesh and Bone so you might want to check them as well., http://agent-007-minus-skachat.ioo-sokol.ru|����� 007 ����� ������� , http://den-nezavisimosti-skachat.intazgbi.ru|���� ������������� ������� , http://skachat-gruppu-deep-purple.intimate-world.ru|������� ������ deep purple , http://seks-domashnij-besplatnyj-prosmotr.informama.ru|���� �������� ���������� �������� , http://dxgi-dll-skachat.intimate-world.ru|dxgi dll ������� ,

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Anyway, the next ten minutes will be pretty amusing to you and you should expect a lot of fun., http://mat-uchit-syna-traxu.inline-spb.ru ���� ���� ���� ����� , http://chelovek-20-skachat.intimate-world.ru|������� 2.0 ������� , http://novinki-3gp-skachat.intazgbi.ru|������� 3gp ������� , http://mw-light-lyustra-na-shtange-sabrina-5-336011706.islen.ru|MW-Light ������ �� ������ ������� 5 336011706 , http://myach-futbolnyj-derbystar-merlin-aps.iskusstvovedy.ru|��� ���������� Derbystar Merlin APS,

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Let's start with Kendra's bio information like for example her age and height., http://besplatno-XXXXX-video-staryx-bab.inline-spb.ru|��������� ����� ����� ������ ��� , http://skachat-sbornik-vindovs.intimate-world.ru|������� ������� ������� , http://zhenskaya-borba-russkaya-s-afrikankoj-erotika-shou.informama.ru|������� ������ ������� � ���������� ������� ��� , http://skachat-besplatno-videouroki-nemeckogo-yazyka.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ��������� ���������� ��������� ����� , http://porevo-erotika-private-foto.informama.ru|������, �������, ������� ���� ,

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The funniest thing was that it didn't take me a long time to cumm and I did that in about two minutes or something., http://maska-fors-vektor-ukreplyayushhaya-protiv-lomkosti-volos-force.iskusstvovedy.ru|����� ���� ������ ����������� ������ �������� ����� Force Vector Loreal , http://skachat-gp-5.intimate-world.ru|������� gp 5 , http://videoregistratory-ritmix-avr-670.iso-test-x.ru|����������������� Ritmix AVR-670 , http://skachat-vizio-2010-besplatno.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ����� 2010 ��������� , http://zhenshhiny-dlya-seksa-v-ufe.informama.ru|������� ��� ����� � ��� ,

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It's embarrassing and something I feel very betrayed by, but I`m not pointing any fingers., http://butyrka-pokatilas-zhizn-skachat.ioo-sokol.ru ������� ���������� ����� ������� , http://codegen-superpower-q3335-a2-350w.iskusstvovedy.ru|Codegen SuperPower Q3335-A2 350W, http://skachat-3-mir-besplatno.intimate-world.ru|������� 3 ��� ��������� , http://zhenskaya-seksopatologiya-skachat.informama.ru|������� �������������� ������� , http://ceny-na-bilety-v-kinoteatrax.inline-spb.ru|���� �� ������ � ����������� ,

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I think there are about one million fans of her and this is the approximate number., http://seks-dlya-dvux-lesbiyanok-smatret-besplatno.informama.ru|���� ��� ���� ��������� �������� ��������� , http://legginsy-dlya-devochki-pepi-cvet-belyj-razmer-3-rost-110-116-s.islen.ru|�������� ��� ������� "����", ����: �����. ������ 3. ���� 110-116 ��, 5-6 ��� , http://skachat-besplatno-kopiyu-windows-xp.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ��������� ����� windows xp , http://skachat-skiny-dlya-oruzhiya-ks.intimate-world.ru|������� ����� ��� ������ �� , http://avtomobilnyj-derzhatel-dlya-htc-desire-s-puro-sh1brackets.iskusstvovedy.ru|������������� ��������� ��� HTC Desire S Puro SH1BRACKETS ,

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That meant I can't delay making a review about her for tomorrow as that would be not professional., http://chexol-dlya-samsung-mv800-case-logic-unzt-202.iso-test-x.ru|����� ��� Samsung MV800 Case Logic UNZT-202 , http://besplatnoe-goryachee-XXXXX-onlajn.inline-spb.ru|���������� ������� ����� ������ , http://akkumulyator-dlya-nokia-6155-bl-6c-original.islen.ru|����������� ��� Nokia 6155 BL-6C ORIGINAL , http://skachat-besplatno-voron-2.intazgbi.ru|������� ��������� ����� 2 , http://televizor-supra-stv-lc2277fld.iskusstvovedy.ru|��������� SUPRA STV-LC2277FLD ,

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But anyway that's what she is and we'd better close that care about how old she is., http://skachat-oboi-ubuntu.intimate-world.ru ������� ���� ubuntu , http://krem-kraska-bez-ammiaka-red-shades-766-blondin-intensivno-kras.iso-test-x.ru|����-������ ��� ������� Red shades 7.66 ������� ���������� ������� Brelil , http://saturn-st-bc1304.islen.ru|Saturn ST-BC1304, http://skachat-stalker-inferno.ioo-sokol.ru|������� ������� ������� , http://chexol-dlya-samsung-s7230-wave-723-cellular-line-momo-sleeve-m.iskusstvovedy.ru|����� ��� Samsung S7230 Wave 723 Cellular Line Momo Sleeve MOMOSLMBK ,

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Well, nothing obvious I guess because that's exactly we read some new things about here, going on her concerts and listening to her music although I think this is all crap., http://domrabotnica-seks-rasskaz.inline-spb.ru|������������ ���� ������� , http://mediaget-skachat-polnuyu-versiyu.intazgbi.ru|mediaget ������� ������ ������ , http://zaryadnoe-ustrojstvo-dlya-samsung-galaxy-tab-77-p6800-p10ebegs.iso-test-x.ru|�������� ���������� ��� Samsung GALAXY Tab 7.7 P6800 P10EBEGSTD ORIGINAL , http://bumaga-dlya-zapisej-index-cvetnaya-v-podstavke-700-listov.iskusstvovedy.ru|������ ��� ������� "Index", �������, � ���������, 700 ������ , http://perchatki-vratarya-muzhskie-reusch-reusch-core-function-pro-m1.iskusstvovedy.ru|�������� ������� ������� Reusch Reusch Core Function Pro M1 Master ,

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