Motion Picture Association of America ( MPAA ) potrà a breve annoverare una nuova tecnologia utile a individuare in sala la presenza di camcorder e dispositivi digitali dotati di telecamera. La soluzione, fornita da un team di ricercatori dell’università di Osaka, si basa sui già utilizzati watermark video , riproducendone le caratteristiche per il comparto audio. I suoi ideatori promettono un’efficacia eccezionale: nei test effettuati, il sistema è riuscito ad individuare da quale poltrona della platea il video fosse stato registrato.
Il watermark audio è in grado di riconoscere la specifica traccia audio nascosta tra i vari canali che vanno a comporre dialoghi, effetti e colonna sonora del film, definiti host signal . Ad ognuno di essi viene quindi assegnato un watermark: quando l’audio viene riprodotto – spiegano gli autori – i vari canali trasmessi dai diversi speaker in sala vengono ricondotti dalla videocamera ad un unico segnale. Analizzando la registrazione, è possibile notare come i segnali dotati di watermark presentino un ritardo dovuto alla distanza dall’altoparlante da cui sono stati originariamente emessi. In base a questo criterio, secondo l’equipe capitanata dal professor Babaguchi, è possibile localizzare l’esatto posto da cui la registrazione è partita.
Nei vari test effettuati, il sistema ha dimostrato un’approssimazione di errore nel risultato pari a soli 44 centimetri. “Il nostro sistema, abbinato a quelli già esistenti di watermark video va a formare una combinazione in grado di stabilire in quale sala il film sia stato catturato, in quale momento e, soprattutto, da quale posto in platea” spiega il team di ricercatori. Effettivamente, tale metodo rappresenta una sorta di quadratura del cerchio: in precedenza i watermark video erano sì in grado di stabilire da quale sala il film era stato ripreso, ma non fornivano alcuna informazione su chi, tra la folla, potesse essere l’autore del “sacco”.
Va ricordato che, come per filmati dotati di video watermark, il sistema è retroattivo: in altre parole, è possibile analizzare i video solo dopo che questi siano stati condivisi sul web. Ciò, comunque, pone un altro quesito: una volta ottenuta l’esatta posizione in cui il camcorder era posizionato, come fare per identificarlo? Per questo motivo, se adottato, il sistema porterà con sé numerosi altri occhi elettronici puntati sulla folla, in maniera da ottenere prima un riscontro visivo del colpevole, per poi tentare di identificarlo. Inoltre, nell’ipotesi più temuta dalle associazioni a tutela della privacy , le associazioni cinematografiche potrebbero decidere di applicare l’adozione di biglietti nominali , così come si è ormai soliti fare negli stadi per arginare il problema della violenza sugli spalti.
Un sistema del genere, se addizionato alle già esistenti misure di sicurezza in dotazione al personale di sala, quali visori notturni e metal detector utili ad identificare oggetti tecnologici non graditi, renderebbe del tutto simile l’andare a vedere un film al cinema con il prendere un aereo. In molti, ironizzando, potrebbero pensare che il prossimo passo di MPAA e soci potrebbe essere quello di adottare i tanto discussi scanner millimetrali , al cui occhio nulla sembrerebbe sfuggire.
Vincenzo Gentile
leggi i 622 commenti
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Il mondo che Cubasia continua a dipingere è un mondo di aziende perfide, clienti finali utonti, e in mezzo dei geni incompresi usati, spremuti e buttati, il suo potenziale bacino di riferimento, qualora decidesse di scendere in campo (politico o sindacale).Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze dell'utente, non viceversa!-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
Il mondo che Cubasia continua a dipingere è un
mondo di aziende perfide, clienti finali utonti,
e in mezzo dei geni incompresi usati, spremuti e
buttati, il suo potenziale bacino di riferimento,
qualora decidesse di scendere in campo (politico
o
sindacale).
Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da
utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente
tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto
è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il
prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze
dell'utente, non viceversa !Infatto : guarda l'automobile, quasiasi bambino piuo' prendere e guidarne una, mica servono corsi per imparare...-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_gennaio_07/bus_bambino_sei_anni_auto_scontro_d2887af8-dce3-11dd-8a8f-00144f02aabc.shtml:D -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
Infatto : guarda l'automobile, quasiasi bambino
piuo' prendere e guidarne una, mica servono corsi
per
imparare...Ah ah aaaahCon l'auto puoi ammazzare delle persone, renderle menomate a vita, ... per semplice ignoranza.Un PC devi scaraventarlo volontariamente adosso a qualcuno perché possa produrre danni fisici versi terzi.-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.Fatti fare un corso da Cubasia.-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Paolini
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.
Fatti fare un corso da Cubasia.Mai cablato una rete ospedaliera ? -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: krane
- Scritto da: Paolini
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.
Fatti fare un corso da Cubasia.
Mai cablato una rete ospedaliera ?Stiamo parlando di utenti (x te utonti) non di lavoratori IT! -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
- Scritto da: krane
- Scritto da: Paolini
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.
Fatti fare un corso da Cubasia.
Mai cablato una rete ospedaliera ?
Stiamo parlando di utenti (x te utonti) non di
lavoratori IT!Stiamo parlando di utenti, utonti, lavoratori e le interazioni di questi soggetti con gli strumenti informatici che utilizzano. -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
Scritto da: Mik
Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da
utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente
tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto
è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il
prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze
dell'utente, non
viceversa!
Scritto da: Paolini
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.
Scritto da: krane
Mai cablato una rete ospedaliera ?
Scritto da: Mik
Stiamo parlando di utenti (x te utonti) non di
lavoratori IT!
Scritto da: krane
Stiamo parlando di utenti, utonti, lavoratori e
le interazioni di questi soggetti con gli
strumenti informatici che
utilizzano.dai che ce la puoi fare a seguire il filo del discorso, pure se sei un geek -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
versione errata, leggere quella sottohttp://punto-informatico.it/b.aspx?i=2567211&m=2570390#p2570390 -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
Scritto da: Mik
Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da
utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente
tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto
è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il
prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze
dell'utente, non
viceversa!- Scritto da: krane
Infatto : guarda l'automobile, quasiasi bambino
piuo' prendere e guidarne una, mica servono corsi
per
imparare...
Scritto da: Paolini
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.
Scritto da: krane
Mai cablato una rete ospedaliera ?
Scritto da: Mik
Stiamo parlando di utenti (x te utonti) non di
lavoratori IT!
Scritto da: krane
Stiamo parlando di utenti, utonti, lavoratori e
le interazioni di questi soggetti con gli
strumenti informatici che
utilizzano.dai che ce la puoi fare a seguire il filo del discorso, pure se sei un geek -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Paolini
i danni non sono solo fisici, geniaccio.Si anche morali, tipo leggere le XXXXXXXte che scrivi, ma non è il computer ad ingigantirle,XXXXXXXte resterebbero se me le dicessi a voce.
Fatti fare un corso da Cubasia.No grazie, non vorrei diventare come te.
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Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
Comunque sia, se un programmatore è circondato da
utonti, significa che è lui ad essere talmente
tonto da non capire che il prodotto che ha fatto
è una ciofeca, e lo è per definizione: è il
prodotto che deve soddisfare le esigenze
dell'utente, non
viceversa!Ho letto tanti post in questa discussione che cercano di definire esattamente il reale concetto di "utonto".Un paragone che ho trovato inizialmente ben azzeccato è quello tra IT-utente e medico-paziente: si diceva che se un medico ti fa una diagnosi, tu obbedisci in silenzio seguendo le sue prescrizioni, mentre se un informatico ti da un parere, l'"utonto" di solito lo ignora pensando di essere a sua volta un esperto, convinto di avere le competenze adeguate per cavarsela da solo.Ho avuto curiosamente un'esperienza che confuta questa tesi, proprio oggi che avevo dei parenti a pranzo, e riguardava il vaccino per l'influenza. Premetto che io stesso ho fatto il vaccino quest'anno, dato che ho avuto problemi respiratori negli ultimi tempi, e che quest'anno in effetti non ho avuto il minimo problema con la sindrome infulenzale.Tra questi miei parenti, invece, pare che fosse opinione comune che il suddetto vaccino è assolutamente inutile, o peggio ancora controindicato, in quanto hanno tutti più o meno uniformemente raccontato la stessa esperienza, e cioè che hanno avuto più problemi con l'influenza negli anni in cui non hanno fatto alcun vaccino che negli anni in cui invece lo hanno fatto.Ora, io non sono un medico, questo è ovvio, ma mi è sembrato di rivedere tante esperienze raccolte in questo forum, in cui magari l'utente a pranzo con parenti racconta amabilmente: "Ho avuto più problemi con il pc da quando ho installato l'antivirus XYZ, che mi ha consigliato l'esperto di informatica, che prima. Da quando lo ho disinstallato, mi trovo di nuovo benissimo!".A questo punto, sapendo da professionista dell'IT quanto un AV sia necessario per l'utilizzo in rete di un moderno pc (quantomeno se vi è installato il so desktop più diffuso), e quanto il vaccino per l'influenza abbia almeno per il mio caso avuto efficacia, quello che mi chiedo è quanto il "non-esperto" possa sentirsi veramente in diritto di screditare un'opinione diffusa nell'ambito degli "esperti" basandosi solo sulle sue esperienze dirette.Credo che una persona possa decidere di punto in bianco di non dare più retta alle prescrizioni del medico perché tanto si sente abbastanza preparata in medicina da non avere bisogno di consigli da nessuno, anche se magari per lavoro fa l'avvocato/architetto/panettiere/impiegato/sistemista. E che a questo punto il termine "utonto" descriva proprio questo, una persona che per le sue limitate esperienze dirette si senta in diritto di non dare credito ai consigli di un professionista del settore, qualunque settore esso sia. È solo che, come qualcun altro ha già scritto, per il settore informatico è stato trovato un termine preciso, per gli altri (che io sappia) ancora no.-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
medico-paziente: si diceva che se un medico ti fa
una diagnosi, tu obbedisci in silenzio seguendo
le sue prescrizioni, mentre se un informatico tiNon è vero che i pazienti seguono sempre i consigli del medico, ce ne sono tanti che continuano a mangiare cibi proibiti, fumare nonostante tumori diagnosticati al polmone, ecc. oppure affidarsi alla medicina alternativa, i fiori di bach, ecc.Quindi concordo con te che pure altrove le prescrizioni non sempre vengono seguite,la differenza è che questo, nel caso del medico, non incide sul rispetto che continua a portare verso il suo paziente.
Ora, io non sono un medico, questo è ovvio, ma mi
è sembrato di rivedere tante esperienze raccolte
in questo forum, in cui magari l'utente a pranzo
con parenti racconta amabilmente: "Ho avuto più
problemi con il pc da quando ho installato
l'antivirus XYZ, che mi ha consigliato l'esperto
di informatica, che prima. Da quando lo ho
disinstallato, mi trovo di nuovo
benissimo!".Riguardo all'amico, non ha tutti i torti, evidentemente l'esperto informatico, il geek gli aveva installato un antivirus esoso di risorse, come il Norton, con scansione completa del PC ad ogni avvio dello stesso. In tali casi l'antivirus si rivela più dannoso del rischio di prendersi un virus.E' qui che dovrebbe entrare in scena l'informatico serio proponendo una soluzione che non rallenti il PC e lo mantenga protetto, per molti potrebbe bastare la scansione all'apertura o al salvataggio dei nuovi file.Mentre i medici o altri professionisti comprendono che "la carne è debole", che è difficile cambiare le abitudini di un paziente o di un cliente, e che comunque le prescrizioni hanno dei costi, per cui bisogna valutare costi e benefici,molti informatici/geek tendono a liquidare il tutto con l'epiteto "utonto".Non è lui a essere tonto, ma il geek che non viene incontro alle esigenze del cliente, e non si sforza di mettersi nei suoi panni.E' inutile che pensiamo di lavorare nel settore più importante di tutti, il contadino, per esempio, fa un lavoro più fondamentale del nostro, lui può anche vivere senza di noi, noi senza di lui moriamo di fame!-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
medico-paziente: si diceva che se un medico
ti fa una diagnosi, tu obbedisci in silenzio
seguendo le sue prescrizioni, mentre se un
informatico ti
Non è vero che i pazienti seguono sempre i
consigli del medico, ce ne sono tanti che
continuano a mangiare cibi proibiti, fumare
nonostante tumori diagnosticati al polmone, ecc.
oppure affidarsi alla medicina alternativa, i
fiori di bach, ecc.
Quindi concordo con te che pure altrove le
prescrizioni non sempre vengono
seguite, la differenza è che questo, nel caso
del medico, non incide sul rispetto che
continua a portare verso il suo paziente.Ma allora non hai letto quello che ha scritto :"Credo che una persona possa decidere di punto in bianco di non dare più retta alle prescrizioni del medico perché tanto si sente abbastanza preparata in medicina da non avere bisogno di consigli da nessuno, anche se magari per lavoro fa l'avvocato/architetto/panettiere/impiegato/sistemista. E che a questo punto il termine "utonto" descriva proprio questo, una persona che per le sue limitate esperienze dirette si senta in diritto di non dare credito ai consigli di un professionista del settore, qualunque settore esso sia."-
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
Sei tu che non leggi:
Scritto da: Mik
la differenza è che questo, nel caso
del medico, non incide sul rispetto che
continua a portare verso il suo paziente. -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
Sei tu che non leggi:
Scritto da: Mik
la differenza è che questo, nel caso
del medico, non incide sul rispetto che
continua a portare verso il suo paziente.A parte che dovrebbe dirlo uno che fa il medico, poi rispetto al rispetto per il paziente mi sembra che abbiate la memoria corta eh...http://www.webmasterpoint.org/news/foto-su-facebook-infermiera-ospedale-torino-pubblica-foto-di-pazienti-sospesa-e-indagini_p33258.html -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
A parte che dovrebbe dirlo uno che fa il medico,
poi rispetto al rispetto per il paziente mi
sembra che abbiate la memoria corta
eh...
http://www.webmasterpoint.org/news/foto-su-faceboose avessi studiato in prima elementare un po' di teoria degli insiemi, capiresti che non puoi applicare a tutto l'insieme le proprietà del singolo elemento.se una infermiera ha pubblicato su facebook le foto dei suoi pazienti, non significa necessariamente che molte infermiere pubblicano abitualmente su facebook le foto dei loro pazienti.mentre appare evidente, ed è riscontrabile pure dagli interventi su questo forum, che molti informatici defiscano molti loro clienti "utonti", sentendosi superiori, in realtà è solo un modo per celare quanto sono mediocri. -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
A parte che dovrebbe dirlo uno che fa il medico,
poi rispetto al rispetto per il paziente mi
sembra che abbiate la memoria corta
eh...
http://www.webmasterpoint.org/news/foto-su-faceboo
se avessi studiato in prima elementare un po' di
teoria degli insiemi, capiresti che non puoi
applicare a tutto l'insieme le proprietà del
singolo elemento.
se una infermiera ha pubblicato su facebook le
foto dei suoi pazienti, non significa
necessariamente che molte infermiere pubblicano
abitualmente su facebook le foto dei loro
pazienti.La stessa cosa vale per gli informatici : infatti quanti siti simili a quello delle storie della sala macchine esistono ?
mentre appare evidente, ed è riscontrabile pure
dagli interventi su questo forum, che molti
informatici defiscano molti loro clienti
"utonti", sentendosi superiori, in realtà è solo
un modo per celare quanto sono mediocri.Gli interventi di questo forum vertevano sulla discussione relativa proprio a questo termine, se si fosse parlato d'altro sarebbero stati OT, ma alla fine il termine guardando la media di tutti i forum giornalieri di PInon e' cosi' usato come la stai montando tu.Continuo a pensare che sia solo invidia delle altre categorie che non sono riuscite a coniare un termine che non arrivi direttamente dal dizionario degli insulti per definire il classico saccente stressc@zzi che esiste in ogni categoria. -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
se una infermiera ha pubblicato su facebook le
foto dei suoi pazienti, non significa
necessariamente che molte infermiere pubblicano
abitualmente su facebook le foto dei loro
pazienti.
La stessa cosa vale per gli informatici : infatti
quanti siti simili a quello delle storie della
sala macchine esistono
?quindi c'è un sito che parla di sale macchine (quale?),e tanti che gli sono simili, e qualcuno (chi?) ha generalizzato che ... (cosa?)
Gli interventi di questo forum vertevano sulla
discussione relativa proprio a questo termine, se
si fosse parlato d'altro sarebbero stati OT, ma
alla fine il termine guardando la media di tutti
i forum giornalieri di PInon e' cosi' usato come
la stai montando
tu.salta sempre fuori quando si parla dei rapporti fra tecnici informatici, programmatori, ecc. e utenti finali,ed è un argomento che non viene toccato tutti i giorni, quindi pure l'epiteto non viene usato giornalmente
Continuo a pensare che sia solo invidia delle
altre categorie che non sono riuscite a coniare
un termine che non arrivi direttamente dal
dizionario degli insulti per definire il classico
saccente stressc@zzi che esiste in ogni
categoria.rileggiti l'articolo di cubasia, quello si che trasuda di saccenza e superbia verso degli esseri, non persone, esseri!ma cosa siamo? la razza superiore????frustrati informatici d'Italia, armiamoci e partite! -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
rileggiti l'articolo di cubasia, quello si che
trasuda di saccenza e superbia verso degli
esseri, non persone,
esseri!immagina un articolo del genere su un giornale telematico dedicato agli avvocati, medici, ... che parla del rapporto professionista / clienteche vergogna -
Re: Il mondo di Cubasia
- Scritto da: Mik
rileggiti l'articolo di cubasia, quello si che
trasuda di saccenza e superbia verso degli
esseri, non persone, esseri!
immagina un articolo del genere su un giornale
telematico dedicato agli avvocati, medici, ...
che parla del rapporto professionista /
clienteVediamo...Ottica : http://clientimpazienti.splinder.com/tag/richeste+impossibiliNotare anche i generi sotto l'articolo : il cliente ha sempre ragione, storditi, richieste impossibili.Oppure il libro : http://books.google.it/books?id=-sxapJIR3moC&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=clienti+impossibili&source=bl&ots=LobCdOMWT_&sig=sPDn69ll1dqvhJFAyy6ae-InGNA&hl=it&ei=Q3y2SYHEKsvF-QaqraH6Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=resultL'arte di non lamentarsi mai, se qualcuno ha scritto un libro a riguardo e' evidente che si sente la necessita' di non bestemmiare dietro ai clienti.Oppure i corsi anti nervosismo in ufficio che insegnano a non arrabbiarsi con i clienti : http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/2007/03/18/nervosismo-in-ufficio-un-corso-per-riderci.htmlE tutti questi esempi non riguardano il mestiere di informatico.
che vergognaE' la natura umana fare ironia invece di arrabbiarsi (quando va bene).
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Re: Colpa nostra.
un momento, tu però parli di macchine in grado di capire...insomma tipo una segreteria, che tu gli dici "batta a macchina questa lettera" e lei parte e scriveinutile dire che siamo molto lontani da questo traguardoqualcosa si può già fare ma bisogna ripensare completamente il software....deve sparire il concetto di programma/proXXXXX, così come le distinzioni tra os, middleware, application software e compagniadev'esserci un meccanismo tipo un motore di ricerca, per cui l'utente scrive "voglio scrivere una lettera" e il motore gli risponde visualizzando una lista di icone corrispondenti ai componenti capaci di scrivere lettere....altro punto dev'essere l'embedding di componenti all'interno di altre finestre/applicazioni e l'automazione remota dei componenti stessiin questo modo ogni software può manipolare qualsiasi tipo di oggetto-
Re: Colpa nostra.
- Scritto da: pabloski
un momento, tu però parli di macchine in grado di
capire...
insomma tipo una segreteria, che tu gli dici
"batta a macchina questa lettera" e lei parte e
scrive
inutile dire che siamo molto lontani da questo
traguardo
qualcosa si può già fare ma bisogna ripensare
completamente il software....deve sparire il
concetto di programma/proXXXXX, così come le
distinzioni tra os, middleware, application
software e
compagnia
dev'esserci un meccanismo tipo un motore di
ricerca, per cui l'utente scrive "voglio scrivere
una lettera" e il motore gli risponde
visualizzando una lista di icone corrispondenti
ai componenti capaci di scrivere
lettere....
altro punto dev'essere l'embedding di componenti
all'interno di altre finestre/applicazioni e
l'automazione remota dei componenti
stessi
in questo modo ogni software può manipolare
qualsiasi tipo di
oggettonon è necessario un OS semantico che comprenda un comando tipo "voglio scrivere una lettera" quello che si diceva riguarda solo l'embedding, in pratica dovrebbe esistere un solo formato di documento e all'interno potrebbe agire poi qualunque applicazione, da excel a photoshop, da Mathematica a Access etc..-
Re: Colpa nostra.
Sbaglio o ci hanno provato con OLE (e poi COM), Kpart, Bonobo e compagnia bella?Persino su Amiga c'era una roba che si chiamava Hotlink (se non mi ricordo male).Però puoi astrarre il concetto di oggetto quanto ti pare, esisterà sempre un'implementazione di quell'oggetto che non avevi considerato.Per esempio un utente potrebbe voler embeddare un programma in AmigaE che prende dati da un database Access, all'interno di un documento di testo e vederlo girare come slide di Impress o Powerpoint.Sarebbe molto bello poterglielo permettere, ma ho idea che l'unico modo sia chea) i programmi interessati sappiano già che potrebbero girare in questi contesti e siano progettati all'abbisognab) che per l'appunto ogni programma crei il suo oggetto in modo che l'utente possa embeddarlo all'interno di un oggetto "padre" che li contiene tutti.A questo punto, forse il germe di tutto questo potrebbe essere qualcosa di simile alle porte Rexx, tramite il quale applicazioni che nemmeno si conoscono potrebbero comunicare e controllarsi a vicenda con un protocollo standard.Ovviamente il tutto elevato all'ennesima potenza per garantire la flessibilità che si richiede.Poi potrei aver frainteso completamente il tuo post.Se fosse questo il caso, mi scuso ;)-
Re: Colpa nostra.
no hai ragione è quello che dicevo io, l'unica differenza è che dovrebbe essere l'OS a OBBLIGARE i programmi a dover girare all'interno di un unico sistema.O li fai così o nisba.
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Re: Colpa nostra.
A sto punto fai prima a dire te al PC cosa vuoi :D e non serve più una persona "umana".
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Re: Colpa nostra.
esattamente, sono perfettamente d'accordo, uno apre un documento e poi lavorando inserisce all'interno qualsiasi cosa, frammenti di spreadsheet, disegno vettroriale, campi di un database, pagine di Mathematica, documenti musicali, video, etc.. etc..mai provato ragtime?http://www.ragtime.de/start.html?lang_id=enè un inizio-
Re: Colpa nostra.
Ehm, Windows 3.1 aveva già il supporto per roba del genere e si chiama OLE :o ...E i programmi che lo supportano sono tantini-
Re: Colpa nostra.
si certo è una specie di quello che stavo dicendo io la differenza è che dopo tanti anni uno continua a usare i formati XLS, ipg, etc invece dovrebbe usarne uno solo es. DOC e tutto dovrebbe stare dentro lì-
Re: Colpa nostra.
- Scritto da: pietro
si certo è una specie di quello che stavo dicendo
io la differenza è che dopo tanti anni uno
continua a usare i formati XLS, ipg, etc invece
dovrebbe usarne uno solo es. DOC e tutto dovrebbe
stare dentro lìSai vero che il formato .doc cambia ad ogni versione di office vero ?-
Re: Colpa nostra.
Il vero problema è che anche tra le stesse versioni ci sono problemi di formattazione :((nel 2007 però per ora ho visto coerenza). -
Re: Colpa nostra.
Credo che pietro parli di una interfaccia utente orientata al documento piuttosto che al file.Invece che tutto è file,tutto è documento.Sarebbe un layer che occulta tutta la meccanica sottostante e toglie di mezzo anche gran parte del problema utonti, non è un'idea malvagia.
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utonti
sta cosa degli utonti la so da anni e anni e ci vivo grazie agli utonti...non sono d accordo sul fatto di adeguare la comunicazione all utonto....primo non ho tempo da perdere e nella mia esperienza anche l utonto piu' utonto se vuole comprare una cosa prima o poi capisce come, perche' ci si accanisce cercando di superare i propri limiti di utonto e quindi svolgo anche il compito di consapevolizzare l ' utonto del fatto che e' utonto.Coloro che si incavolano di termini come utonti e' perche' sono utonti...solo i non utonti non si adirano. Definire una persona utonto non e' razzismo ma solo descrizione della maggioranza dei bipedi parlanti.L' ultima che ho sentita da un utonta che si informava sul mio lavoro...ah...allora apro un blog e ci faccio i soldi con la pubblicita'....gli ho risposto si triccke traccke e castagnole e' arrivato il tabaccaio. -
Re: Siamo tutti utonti
- Scritto da: paoloholzl
Persino a scuola ci sono oggi i genitori che
vogliono insegnare ai maestri il loro
lavoro.
Per non parlare dei genitori con l'allenatore
sportivo dei
figli.
Oggi manca un concetto, l'umiltà, 'io so che non
so'.
Quelli a cui questo principio manca non sono gli
utonti, sono
i..
tonti
punto e basta.
:-)Verissimo! -
CUBASIA SEI MITICO
... sti utonti hanno rotto le p..!! Va be' che pagano (in ritardo) ma è ora che escano dalle caverne, siamo nel 2009! -
Utonti ? Magari...
A me capita di lavorare per "utonti", pero' non mi sembra che siano tanto tonti perche' i veri tonti siamo noi (in questo caso l'azienda per cui lavoro) che non fa pagare opportunamente tutte le cavolate (ovvero cambi di requisiti assurdi) che gli utonti vogliono. -
Che tipo è l'utonto
L'utonto è chiunque sia dotato di sufficienteintelligenza da capire per tempo che l'informatica portaall'esaurimento.Per cui se ne guarda bene dall'ascoltarci.La persona più utonta che conosca è un medico. -
è la normalità
Per la verità questa cosa accade praticamente con qualunque professione. Provi a farsi spiegare da un astrofisico qualcosa o da un oncologo o da un sinologo o da un filosofo e probabilmente anche dal meccanico sotto casa. mah... E' ovvio che se non si è professionisti del settore si farà fatica a capire. -
Re: Siamo tutti utonti
- Scritto da: anonimo jettatore
Si dice che Einstein non sapesse allacciarsi le
scarpe quindi era l'utonto del suo calzolaio (e
non
solo).a proposito di Heinstein; frasi celebri :"Tutta la nostra conoscenza ; paragonata alla realtà, è primitiva e infantile ... tuttavia è i bene più prezioso di cui disponiamo !"oppure :"ho scelto la Fisica , perchè per la matematica non ero portato !" -
interfaccia
Quando un utente, non mi va di chiamarlo utonto, non riesce ad usare un programma (o il sistema operativo) il più delle volte il problema è nel programmatore che non è riuscito a dare a un sistema complesso un'interfaccia semplice logica e comprensibile.Spesso questo succede perchè dare un'interfaccia semplice è molto complesso e dispendioso in termini di tempo e risorse.Si fa prima a far fare il lavoro pesante all'utente.Un utente è per definizione non è non esperto di informatica e non lo deve diventare, lui fa un altro lavoro, per lui il computer è uno strumento e gli serve per raggiungere un suo obbiettivo che con il computer non c'entra nulla.Un esempio classico fu l'inerfaccia grafica del mac, poi copiata da tutti gli altri, che fu progettata da degli psicologi e non da dei programmatori.Quando i programmatori invece di acoltare gli utenti si arrogano il diritto di decidere come devono essere fatte le cose e giocano a fare gli psicologi allora sono guai.-
Re: interfaccia
Verissimo, ma l'utente dovrebbe cominciare a capire che il PC non è un sistema banale come un frullatore: parlando proprio di interfaccia, i moderni sistemi operativi desktop e i programmi che vi girano sopra sono frutto di anni e anni di tentativi di semplificazione esasperati, per permettere a tutti di saper gestire sistemi complessi senza grosse conoscenze informatiche.È un po' come se stessimo pilotando un 767 con i comandi della nostra automobile.Questa cosa a noi informatici va sicuramente bene, e non smetteremo neanche di lavorarci su per rendere i comandi ancora più semplici, magari simili a quelli di una bicicletta; chiediamo solo che gli utenti si rendano conto di questo sforzo e non si sentano in diritto di considerarsi a loro volta esperti informatici solo perché sanno come configurarsi il client di posta.-
Re: interfaccia
- Scritto da: Dev
Verissimo, ma l'utente dovrebbe cominciare a
capire che il PC non è un sistema banale come un
frullatore: parlando proprio di interfaccia, i
moderni sistemi operativi desktop e i programmi
che vi girano sopra sono frutto di anni e anni di
tentativi di semplificazione esasperati, per
permettere a tutti di saper gestire sistemi
complessi senza grosse conoscenze
informatiche.
È un po' come se stessimo pilotando un 767 con i
comandi della nostra
automobile.
Questa cosa a noi informatici va sicuramente
bene, e non smetteremo neanche di lavorarci su
per rendere i comandi ancora più semplici, magari
simili a quelli di una bicicletta; chiediamo solo
che gli utenti si rendano conto di questo sforzo
e non si sentano in diritto di considerarsi a
loro volta esperti informatici solo perché sanno
come configurarsi il client di
posta.Non mi sono spiegato allora, l'esperto informatico deve svolgere il suo lavoro nella produzione e configurazione dei programmi PRIMA che questi arrivino in mano all'utente, se poi questi sono fatti come si deve l'esperto non deve più essere necessario
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LE TRE CARTE DI CUBASIA
1 - L´introduzione2 - La storiella3 - Il sindacatoMannaggia mannaggia, come si dice? La lingua batte dove il dente duole!Vuoi proprio raccattare disperati, 1 milione di disperati...perché alla fine sei un business man, e sai perfettamente che una tessera annuale da 10 euro riesci a strappargliela, il ché fa 10 milioni di euro l´anno...biricchino :D -
Qualunquismo
Caro Cubasia,sono un lettore di Punto Informatico ormai da molti anni e anche, seppur giovane, "PROFESSIONISTA IT".Trovo che questo articolo, come tanti altri che hanno lo hanno preceduto, trasudi di qualunquismo e luoghi comuni per suscitare una qualche reazione nei lettori dei suoi scritti (che evidentemente sono tutti in qualche modo coinvolti nell'IT). Senza dilungarmi eccessivamente vorrei farle notare che scrivere articoli in cui si descrive per filo e per segno realtà indiscusse del mondo tencologico/informatico, senza in NESSUN modo trarre conclusioni non porta perfettamente a nulla. Ormai ci ha abituato ad articoli in cui si parla di tutti i possibili luoghi comuni : "L'informatica è una scienza ma il mondo non sembra capirlo", "Il professionista informatico non viene pagato abbastanza", "La qualità vs la quantità". Mi sembra strano come mai non sia ancora stato detto che "Non esistono più le mezze stagioni" o che "Non ci sono più i tempi di una volta". Non sarebbe più costruttivo parlare di problematiche REALI, confrontandosi e cercando vie di fuga da questa sempre più incresciosa realtà in cui ci troviamo? Che senso ha parlare di UTONTI e TROLL? E' logico e naturale che quando si incontrano un TECNICO ed un UTENTE (anche meccanici, carrozzieri, odontotecnici ecc ecc) accade quello che ha prolissamente descritto nel suo articolo. Mi perdonerà sicuramente se con doveroso rispetto la informo che, per quanto mi riguarda, potrebbero mettere chiunque a scrivere gli articoli che lei ci propina ogni venerdì.-
Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato
Trovo che questo articolo, come tanti altri che
hanno lo hanno preceduto, trasudi di qualunquismo
e luoghi comuni per suscitare una qualche
reazione nei lettori dei suoi scritti (che
evidentemente sono tutti in qualche modo
coinvolti nell'IT).Grande ! Scrivi proprio bene, dove posso leggere gli articoli scritti da te ?-
Re: Qualunquismo
Senza accendere una discussione inutile non facevo riferimento alla FORMA, bensì al contenuto.Io non essendo in grado di scrivere articoli interessanti STO ALLA LARGA DAL GIORNALISMO, ( E DALLE RISPOSTE INUTILI) peccato che non tutti siano della mia opinioni.-
Re: Qualunquismo
Scusami, non avevo visto che sei un collezionista di post inutili, arroganti e privi di senso (se non quello di fomentare discussioni inutili). Appurato questo puoi continuare a parlare da solo per quanto mi riguarda-
Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato
Scusami, non avevo visto che sei un collezionista
di post inutili, arroganti e privi di senso (se
non quello di fomentare discussioni inutili).
Appurato questo puoi continuare a parlare da solo
per quanto mi
riguardaInsomma sei in grado di criticare gli altri, ma non appena qualcuno mette in discussione tu, rispondi isterico ed insultante. -
Re: Qualunquismo
Io ho espresso una mia opinione sull'articolo. Ricevere una critica per un'opnione espressa non mi sembra un grande spunto di conversazione. La sezione "COMMENTI" c'è appunto per COMMENTARE l'articolo. Se il mio COMMENTO non è condiviso non è obbligatorio rispondere.A meno che non si voglia fare flaming -
Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato
Io ho espresso una mia opinione sull'articolo.
Ricevere una critica per un'opnione espressa non
mi sembra un grande spunto di conversazione.La tua opinione e' stata : "potrebbero mettere chiunque a scrivere gli articoli che lei ci propina ogni venerdì."Io mi sono limitato a consigliarti gentilmente di smettere di leggere gli articoli che lui ti propina ogni venerdi; magare non ci avevi mai pensato.
La sezione "COMMENTI" c'è appunto per COMMENTARE
l'articolo. Se il mio COMMENTO non è condiviso
non è obbligatorio rispondere. A meno che non si
voglia fare flamingQuesto e' un forum, oltre a commentare si possono creare discussioni articolate, quindi e' vero che non e' obbligatorio rispondere ma non e' neanche vietato. -
Re: Qualunquismo
OTTIMO Krane... come non essere d'accordo. -
Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato
Io ho espresso una mia opinione sull'articolo.E io ho espresso la mia opinione sulle argomentazioni della tua.Ne avro' facoltà, oppure no?
Ricevere una critica per un'opnione espressa non
mi sembra un grande spunto di conversazione.
Dipende dal fatto se chi ha espresso l'opinione è in grado, ha voglia e ha il carattere di discutere della sua opinione.Mi pare evidente che non è questo il caso, essendo tu dispostissimo a criticare al limite dell'insulto Cubasia, mentre non sei affatto disposto ad accettare critiche sulle tue critiche.Basta dirlo: "Io posso criticare chi mi pare ma non voglio essere criticato".
La sezione "COMMENTI" c'è appunto per COMMENTARE
l'articolo. Se fosse come dici tu, ed ovviamente non lo è, non potrei accodarmi al trhead e continuare la discussione con te.
Se il mio COMMENTO non è condiviso
non è obbligatorio rispondere.Ma nemmeno vietato.Lo stesso vale per te, se non ti piace la mia critica al tuo commento non rispondermi.Trarremo le conclusioni sul tuo commento lo stesso. -
Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato
Scusami, non avevo visto che sei un collezionista
di post inutili, arroganti e privi di senso (se
non quello di fomentare discussioni inutili).Tranquillo, sei scusato.
Appurato questo puoi continuare a parlare da solo
per quanto mi riguardaOk, grazie.
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Re: Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Massimilian o Di Dato
Senza accendere una discussione inutile non
facevo riferimento alla FORMA, bensì al
contenuto.
Io non essendo in grado di scrivere articoli
interessanti STO ALLA LARGA DAL GIORNALISMO, ( E
DALLE RISPOSTE INUTILI) peccato che non tutti
siano della mia opinioni.Ecco bravo stacci alla larga, ti suggerisco un metodo : non leggere gli autori che non ti piacciono e gia' conosci.(rotfl)
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Utonti
Anch'io, nel mio piccolo sono il responsabile IT di una aziena che da sue sedi, mi trovo ad affrontare diversi utonti, ed alnci arrivati recentemente sono dei veri "maestri".Io finora vado vanti con esempi tipo "non mi puoi chiedere di far andare una 500 vecchia di 40 anni a 200 h/h in prima!!!!".Le nuove leve non vogliono proprio capire, io mando mail e quando si riescono a capire che sbagliano gli faccio notare il tempo perso non dandomi retta.Addirittura è dal 15 febbraio che aspetto che mi dica quando posso fare un'installazione di un piccolo sw, io la sollecito via mail ogni 2 gg, lei non mi risponde e ogni lunedì mi dice che il problema è urgente!!! ovviamente sia io e che lei mettiamo in cc i capi.E io lascio andare avanti... -
meno male che ci sono gli intelligentoni
questo articolo ci mancava proprio!Meno male che ci sono gli intelligentoni come te che mandano avanti il mondo... -
Re: Comunicazione e frustrazione
Ti quoto in tutto, la cominucazione ci deve essere sempre, bisogna avere l'ulmità di capire, che all'altro di questo che stai per dirgli, non gli interessa nulla, cercare di usare esempi pratici, lo faccio normalmente, usando macchine o attrezzi da cucina come esempi, ma se poi dopo il ripetersi sempre degli stessi incovenienti, ti viene da pensare, ci fa o ci è?, non gliene frega niente perchè sa che dopo gli risolvo io il problema o non ci arriva?Queste domande penso che ce le siamo posti tutti, peggio sono quelli che vogliono aver ragione anche quando hanno palesemente torto, alcuni hanno scritto ma tu devi metterli in condizione di non poter fare determinate cose, vero in alcuni casi, falso in altri, se uno crea una cartella chimata A e ci infila tutti i file che incominciano con A e tutte le cartelle che iniziano per A, ma tu cosa ci puoi fare?Alla scemenza non esiste confine, alla fantasia nemmeno, quella che per noi sarebbe inpensabile "ordinare le cartelle e raggrupparle per lettera" per un altro può sembrare geniale, per lui può essere una cosa che gli altri non hanno "percepito" che lui vuole ottimizzare, cosa gli dici a uno così quando il pc non trova più i profili?, gli potrai spiegare che le cartelle se sono state messe così c'è un motivo, ma non potrai mai fermare la sua "creatività", di conseguenza serve una base di professionalità, seguita da una sempre buona dose di educazione, rapportasi al loro livello con esempi pratici di vita quotidiana spiegando il perchè è avvenuto questo o quello, ma alla fine la dote principale rimane la rassegnazione, sai che dopo aver rieducato un utonto, ne saranno nati 10 nel frattempo, che saranno "cretivi con i loro pc" e che tu come "qualunque ruolo" non potrai MAI calcolare tutte le scemenze possibili eseguibili su un computer, che anche se ti ascolteranno dopo 10 minuti non si ricorderranno più niente di quello che gli hai detto e faranno altre cose creative con il pc, quindi va bene tutto, prevenzione ed educazione, misto ad insegnamento, ma la dote principale deve essere la rassegnazione, almeno dopo 26 anni nel settore io mi sento così.-
Re: Comunicazione e frustrazione
ma la dote principale deve essere la
rassegnazione, almeno dopo 26 anni nel settore io
mi sento
così.concordo abbastanza sul resto del post, ma questa parte e' desolante. Mi ha veramente intristito.Intendiamoci, purtroppo concordo ma mi chiedo:ma quando e' sucXXXXX che la rassegnazione e' diventata una dote necessaria per poter lavorare?Come siamo messi?:'(:'(
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Lingua
E una banale questione di linguaggio, è una problema che c'è in tutti i lavori.Che so medico o farmacista devono tradurre in parole semplici e spiegarti il tuo problema.So what?Magari ... essere meno arroganti aiuta.-
Re: Lingua
Si ma stranamente quando il medico consiglia una cosa, tutti la fanno, quanto un IT fa lo stesso, non ti ascoltano o fanno addirittura l'opposto, sul bugiardino c'è scritto tra le altre cose l'orario di somministrazione del farmaco, per es. dopo i pasti, il paziente puntualmente dopo assunzione di cibo prende la medicina, se invece noi diciamo,svuota la chache di internet usando questo collegamto, dopo clikki qui e fai un defrag, una volta al mese, loro non lo faranno mai, allora tu lo farai fare in automatico, loro si lamentaranno per gli rallenta il pc anche se lo imposti alle 4 del mattino, quindi... le cose non sono paragonabili!!!! -
Re: Lingua
- Scritto da: Zinco
E una banale questione di linguaggio, è una
problema che c'è in tutti i
lavori.
Che so medico o farmacista devono tradurre in
parole semplici e spiegarti il tuo
problema.Gia. Ma la differenza è che la maggior parte della gente non va in giro leccando tutto quello che trova per vedere se funziona bene ...
So what?
Magari ... essere meno arroganti aiuta.Magari aiuterebbe un filo di cervello in più di quello della media.
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c'è anche il superutonto!
il superutonto crede di saper usare il PICCIe soprattutto crede che cosa sia l'informatica nell'azienda lui conosce le ultime XXXXXXXt.. pardon gadget sw/hw ;usciti sul mercato e consiglia di installarli a tutti i colleghirisultato , il bloatware invade l'azienda e il "sistemista" è considerato un fossilei server , non servono ,secondo il superutonto ...basta un n hd da 10 terabyte da attaccare via usbil backup, è fuori moda ,la condivisione dell'informazione è un'idiozia,ognu utonto deve caricare la rubrica aziendale personalmente in uno di quei programmini bloatware di cui sopra , rigidamente incompatibili anche tra di loroogni anno che passa i superutonti aumentanoe spesso ci sono utonti con cugini/amici/nipoti superutontiche ne sanno più di te che lavori da più di ventanni nel settoreio ho deciso ...quando non ce la farò più a sopportarli ..apro una pizzeria !-
Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
e verranno anche li, a spiegarti come si prepara l'impasto migliore.Glielo ha detto il loro cuggino :pNon c'e' scampo. Nessuna speranza 8) -
Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
e verranno anche li, a spiegarti come si prepara l'impasto migliore.Glielo ha detto il loro cuggino :pNon c'e' scampo. Nessuna speranza 8) -
Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
sorry per doppio postconnessione di m**da-
Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
è colpa tua! Dovevi cliccare il monitor con l'alluce sinistro per inviare bene il post! Me la detto mio cuggino, lui si che se ne intende!(rotfl)
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Re: c'è anche il superutonto!
- Scritto da: anonimo jettatore
il superutonto crede di saper usare il PICCI
e soprattutto crede che cosa sia l'informatica
nell'azienda
lui conosce le ultime XXXXXXXt.. pardon gadget
sw/hw
;
usciti sul mercato e consiglia di installarli a
tutti i
colleghi
risultato , il bloatware invade l'azienda e il
"sistemista" è considerato un
fossile
i server , non servono ,secondo il superutonto ...
basta un n hd da 10 terabyte da attaccare via usb
il backup, è fuori moda ,
la condivisione dell'informazione è un'idiozia,
ognu utonto deve caricare la rubrica aziendale
personalmente
in uno di quei programmini bloatware di cui sopra
, rigidamente incompatibili anche tra di
loro
ogni anno che passa i superutonti aumentano
e spesso ci sono utonti con cugini/amici/nipoti
superutonti
che ne sanno più di te che lavori da più di
ventanni nel
settore
io ho deciso ...
quando non ce la farò più a sopportarli ..
apro una pizzeria !Io invece vado a fare il gelataio. All'estero.
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I due lati del cervello
Io ho ed ho avuto a che fare con gli utonti dal lontano 1983, non erano definiti con un termine come adesso, ma ne facevano già parte, ho potuto constatare che nella gran parte dei casi si tratta di una predisposizione genetica mentale, a un certo punto il cervello si "specializza" su uno dei due rami principali, o vai sul logico, matematica disegno tecnico e geografico, o vai sull'artistico, disegno artistico, poesia, creatività.Alla società servono entrambe le categorie, altrimenti saremmo "poveri" di arte o di logica, poi in rari casi "geni", le cose si evolvono in entrambe le direzioni con ottimi risultati, infine aimè, e c'è son tanti "troppi" che non si evolvono in nessuna delle due.Quindi nella mia classifica, ci sono due categorie di utonti, la prima è "l'utonto informatico" che sostanzialmente non gli frega niente di capire perchè ha altri interessi creativi e mi sta pure simpatico, sono persone solari, volendo un po bizzarre per noi IT, ma sempre degni del massimo rispetto in quanto "pensanti", la seconda categoria invece è l'utonto, punto, utonto sempre, anche fuori dal nostro campo, sono quelli che non sanno cambiarsi nemmeno una lampadina del bagno, a casa loro non esiste un cacciavite, tanto non saprebbero usarlo, bene a quella classe di persone non serve nemmeno spiegare le cose, tanto non ci arrivano, io una volta gli scrissi un vademecum delle cose da fare e non fare a un recidivo, bene dopo l'ennesimo caso di stupidagine cronica e dopo avergli chiesto come mai non avesse fatto come era scritto nel vademecum...ebbi una risposta disarmante, "perchè dovevo leggerlo?"....Per rapportarsi con l'utenza, prima dovete capire con che utonto avete a che fare, poi agite di conseguenza, non siete degli Dei, quindi non potete fare dei miracoli, un utonto informatico lo potete erudire e alla fine vi potrà persino stupire, un utonto no, andata gli risolvete il problema e uscite, non serve spiegare, sarebbe solo tempo perso inultimente!!! P.S. Nella gran parte dei casi l'utonto non vi chiederà nemmeno cosa ha causato il "malfunzionamento" ma userà una frase del tipo "a lasci, non mi stia a spiegare, tanto non ne capisco niente!!" -
ah...se non ci fossero gli utonti!
noi di chi potremmo ridere tra uno stress e l'altro ? Li per lì alcune loro espressioni o "uscite" ci fanno andare fuori di testa... ma dopo riflettendoci riusciamo anche a costruirci sopra un teatrino che ci fa spaccare dalle risate....lunga vita agli "utonti" altrimenti .... ci licenziano ,ovvio ! non serviremmo più a nulla se si mettono a fare quello che noi sappiamo fare...buon week-end a tutti -
non è solo l'informatica
quella dell'utonto è un'attitudine mentale che si estende in tutti i campi della vita....io ho a che fare con i computer da quando ero piccolo, praticamente si può dire che sono cresciuto a pane e computer....ho visto i primi gingilli homebrew, fino alle moderne architetture gpgpufrancamente non ragiono come una cpu e non mi scandalizza il modo di ragionare approssimativo della gente comune....sarà forse dovuto alla mia specializzazione in robotica e IA? mah forse si...quello che però mi fa saltare i nervi del comportamento degli utonti, è il loro modo di essere passivi di fronte ai problemi....un modo d'essere che notavo al liceo tra quelli che "la matematica non fa per noi" e che ritrovo oggi nel campo informaticoinsomma perchè mai l'utonto di fronte all'impossibilità di trovare l'icona di IE non va alla ricerca di una cosa nominata browser oppure "accedi ad internet" o ancora "scarica dalla rete"....voglio dire, se gli cambi l'icona s'impallano, si fermano, non cercano, non esplorano lo spazio di oggetti che è sotto i loro occhilo stesso accade con i problemi matematici...non analizzano, non scompongono, non cercano di metter su una soluzione...si fermano e aspettano che qualcuno gli dica come farequesto non è un problema informatico dunque, ma un problema di totale mancanza di creatività, di capacità esplorativa e induttività-
Re: non è solo l'informatica
Concordo pienamente. Ho solo una cosa da aggiungere che e' allo stesso tempo una riflessione personale e un consiglio alle nuove generazioni.Questo e' un gioco che si puo' solo perdere: l'unico modo per vincere e' non giocare.Sono arrivato a questa convinzione, facendo questo mestiere, ormai quasi quindici anni fa. E' stata una vera fortuna aver avuto in tempo questa illuminazione.;-)Orfheo.-----------------------------------------------------------Modificato dall' autore il 06 marzo 2009 11.41----------------------------------------------------------- -
Re: non è solo l'informatica
anch'io, a volte, trovo noiose alcune cose, addirittura nel mio stesso settore...ma hai notato che c'è gente che trova noioso tutto e sempre?non è nemmeno questione di metodo scientifico, è una questione di pura e semplice curiosità e voglia di indagare nelle cose che ci circondano-
Re: non è solo l'informatica
ah io trovo noiose in egual modo cose del mio settore e di altri ambiti, per cui :-Dma nn mi preoccupo... è normale.E' normale che ognuno abbia suoi obiettivi e ambizioni... Quello di cui molti vanno alla ricerca e che hanno come obiettivo della loro vita e carriera, io spesso lo vedo come fallimento, e viceversa magari.cmq credo che la curiosità sia dovuta anche agli stati emotivi in cui la gente si trova... più "si sta male" e meno si ha curiosità e voglia di apprendere. IMHO
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Consideriamo anche che ...
Circa il 90% dei nostri simili ha un QI inferiore a 100, e riescono a schiantarsi in automobile facendo curve sotto la pioggia a 140 all'ora.In realtà l'utonto è semplicemente la persona poco intelligente e poco attenta alla realtà: quella a cui ripeti 100 volte di non scaricare tutta la XXXXX da internet e di non clickare su qualunque link XXXXX gli capiti. Ma che, immancabilmente, dopo al massimo 30 gg ha già la macchina impestata.O che vuole assolutamente che tu gli spieghi qualcosa con la complessità paragonabile alla deriva dei continenti, ma che deve essere capito in meno di 2 minuti ... utonti, insomma.Categoria che io estendo a TUTTA la realtà, e non solo all'informatica....-
Re: Consideriamo anche che ...
Essendo QI 100 (per definizione) la media sulla popolazione, direi che è più probabile che si sia 50% sotto e 50% sopra.
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La logica e' un linguaggio
Tutto vero cio' che c'e' scritto nell'articolo, anche la seconda parte, dove si dice che anche io tecnicone intollerante devo adattarmi alla realta', il che fa un male cane.Ma giusto per dare un altro contributo alla riflessione: la logica che siamo per deformazione costretti ad adoperare e' l'unico linguaggio in comune agli esseri umani senzienti. Purtroppo non a tutti. A occhio, circa il 60% degli esseri umani (il 40% scarso nei paesi di controriforma come il nostro) sa comunicare in "logico"; gli altri non sanno parlare in quella lingua, e non e' che parlino tra loro una lingua comune: sono divisi in centomila categorie mentali diverse. Esseri umani sbagliati? Assolutamente no! Senza quelle persone, che pensano per emozioni e sintesi, anziche' per calcolo e analisi, non avremmo poesia, film, le lasagne e il luna park.E ancora: dire logico non basta, perche' ci sono 100 modi logici di risolvere un problema, ma restano tutti logici (magari qualcuno un po' piu' efficiente, qualcuno meno, machissene...). E ci sono 100.000 modi non logici di (non) risolvere un problema. La cosa veramente difficile da fare capire, a noi stessi prima e all'utonto dopo, quando e' che siamo di fronte ad una idea "non logica" o ad una logica diversa da quella che adotteremmo noi.Il nostro lavoro ha un inconveniente: mentre chi lavora la terra puo' sbagliarsi di un metro e il grano cresce ugualmente; mentre chi lavora in edilizia puo' sbagliarsi di un centimetro e la casa sta in piedi; mentre chi lavora il legno puo' sbagliarsi di un millimetro e non succede niente; mentre chi lavora in meccanica puo' sbagliarsi di un micron e l'olio gli da' la tolleranza necessaria... Nel nostro lavoro NO! Una minima svista ha effetti che possono essere innocui come devastanti.Il tutto per dire: non solo dovremmo riconoscere un utonto da un logico, ma anche che tipo di logico e che tipo di utonto abbiamo davanti.PS: ma... quelli che fanno un altro mestiere se li pongono tutti 'sti problemi nei confronti del cliente?-
Re: La logica e' un linguaggio
tolleranza necessaria... Nel nostro lavoro NO!
Una minima svista ha effetti che possono essere
innocui come
devastanti.
Il tutto per dire: non solo dovremmo riconoscere
un utonto da un logico, ma anche che tipo di
logico e che tipo di utonto abbiamo
davanti.La logica aristotelica va bene solo in matematica o poco più, quasi tutte le tue conoscenze e i tuoi ragionamenti non sono logici.Nel mondo reale, non astratto, non esiste quasi nessuna affermazione logicamente vera, ma più o meno rappresentativa della realtà.Se fossi un logico non potresti per esempio mai affermare che il sangue è rosso,perché se vai a controllarlo vedrai che non sarà mai un RGB FF0000, e il suo grado di somiglianza al rosso puro è un valore discreto, infinitesimale che non potrai mai tradurre con una sequenza finita di 0 e 1.Se fossi un logico quindi dovresti affermare che il sangue non è rosso, ma nemmeno rosso scuro, e nemmeno rosso chiaro, potresti solo rispondere con dei non è vero ...Dato che pure tu non sei logico, adotti delle semplificazioni della realtà, e dici che una cosa è rossa se il suo spettro rientra in un range, tralaltro variabile, a seconda del grado della tua pignoleria/precisione di quel momento.Non esistono i logici e gli utonti, ma persone più o meno precise, e non direi proprio che quelle precise sono concentrate nell'IT.
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ci voleva...
Articolo che capita a proposito....sono nel pieno della deriva da odio crescente per gli Utonti...e forse devo rivedere qksa nella mia comunicativa -
Utonti e Qualunquismo
Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una categoria dello spirito che si spalma in modo trasversale in tutta la popolazione. Non è qualcosa che abbia a che fare con l'informatica, l'informatica la rende più evidente.Il problema dell'utonto è quello di vivere col paraocchi, senza curiosità, in un mondo di affermazioni apodittiche.In una parola non «Reads The Fine Manual» e per colmare questa lacuna ci mette il proprio diritto ad avere opinioni.È un problema culturale che purtroppo tracima. L'ignoranza ormai è un valore, spesso anche fra noi informatici, purtroppo.Parimenti non sopporto bene chi si lancia nella trita proporzione Informatica : Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica : Caldo,umano,PastaAlPomodoroProvate a fare una pasta al pomodoro senza applicare nessun algoritmo, senza applicare nessuna conoscenza pregressa e vedrete che bel risultato. Le conoscenze Buone,Calde,Umane,DeNoAntri sono tali solo perché sono pregresse :)Sul valore pedagogico dell'ancoraggio (l'effetto del dire Excel=Foglio a quadretti) sono molto scettico. In quella maniera si scatenano direzionandole le euristiche del pensiero facendo sì che questo non elabori gli stimoli in modo costruttivo. Sono profondamente antiriduzionista, ma questa è ovviamente una posizione personale.-
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Quoto ed applaudo. -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
marò quanto filosofeggiare! -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Motosauro
Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una
categoria dello spirito che si spalma in modo
trasversale in tutta la popolazione. Non è
qualcosa che abbia a che fare con l'informatica,
l'informatica la rende più
evidente.
Il problema dell'utonto è quello di vivere col
paraocchi, senza curiosità, in un mondo di
affermazioni
apodittiche.
In una parola non «Reads The Fine Manual» e per
colmare questa lacuna ci mette il proprio diritto
ad avere
opinioni.
È un problema culturale che purtroppo tracima.
L'ignoranza ormai è un valore, spesso anche fra
noi informatici,
purtroppo.Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non ne capisce di informatica un essere subumano.Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo analfabete e che vivono ancora nella superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente i nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli inferiori?persone non degne di essere al nostro livello? Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza di molti informatici!
Parimenti non sopporto bene chi si lancia nella
trita proporzione Informatica :
Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica :
Caldo,umano,PastaAlPomodoro
Provate a fare una pasta al pomodoro senza
applicare nessun algoritmo, senza applicare
nessuna conoscenza pregressa e vedrete che bel
risultato. Una buona pasta al pomodoro sicuramente! L'algoritmo dentro non lo digerisco bene!Le conoscenze
Buone,Calde,Umane,DeNoAntri sono tali solo perché
sono pregresse
:)
Sul valore pedagogico dell'ancoraggio (l'effetto
del dire Excel=Foglio a quadretti) sono molto
scettico. In quella maniera si scatenano
direzionandole le euristiche del pensiero facendo
sì che questo non elabori gli stimoli in modo
costruttivo. Sono profondamente antiriduzionista,
ma questa è ovviamente una posizione
personale.Ma se non c'é altro modo per farglielo capire devi scendere a compromessi.-
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: Motosauro
Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono unacut...
Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non ne
capisce di informatica un essere
subumano.
Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo
analfabete e che vivono ancora nella
superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente i
nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli
inferiori?
persone non degne di essere al nostro livello?
Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica
dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza di
molti informatici!
Che c'entrano i paesi in via di sviluppo?Forse non hai capito il senso della mia replicaPer sintetizzare ho detto che il problema non è essere ignoranti, tutti lo siamo in vario grado. Il problema è non voler capire e questo problema lo si trova in tutte le categorie. L'informatica lo rende solo più evidente
cut..
Ma se non c'é altro modo per farglielo capire
devi scendere a
compromessi.No, se scendi a compromessi fai capire una cosa diversa-
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Motosauro
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: Motosauro
Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una
cut...
Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non
ne
capisce di informatica un essere
subumano.
Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo
analfabete e che vivono ancora nella
superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente i
nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli
inferiori?
persone non degne di essere al nostro livello?
Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica
dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza di
molti informatici!
Che c'entrano i paesi in via di sviluppo?Era un esempio di ignoranza generale. L'analfabeta tipo che non sa né leggere né scrivere e non vuole impararlo ma che merita comunque il rispetto del non essere chiamato asino.
Forse non hai capito il senso della mia replica
Per sintetizzare ho detto che il problema non è
essere ignoranti, tutti lo siamo in vario grado.
Il problema è non voler capire e questo problema
lo si trova in tutte le categorie. Come lo hai esposto tu sembra che l'ignoranza sia una colpa e il non voler capire un delitto.E comunque un po meno di arroganza e di "ghe so tutto mi" tra gli informatici sarebbe gradito.Se non credi sia vero guardati un po di post fatti da noi: tutti considerano tutti degli utonti/n00bs/braccia rubate all'agricoltura. (come da articolo di Cubasia)L'informatica
lo rende solo più
evidente
cut..-
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: Motosauro
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: Motosaurocut..
Come lo hai esposto tu sembra che l'ignoranza sia
una colpa e il non voler capire un
delitto.
La mia posizione è che l'ignoranza non è una colpa bensì un male (uno dei pochi che si possono curare oltretutto)Il non voler capire per me è sì una colpa (a «delitto» non ci arriverei)
E comunque un po meno di arroganza e di "ghe so
tutto mi" tra gli informatici sarebbe
gradito.
Concordo, ma anche fra tutti gli altri direi :)
Se non credi sia vero guardati un po di post
fatti da noi: tutti considerano tutti degli
utonti/n00bs/braccia rubate all'agricoltura.
(come da articolo di
Cubasia)IMHO l'agricoltura è mooolto sottovalutata come attività. Più vado avanti nella carriera e più ne sono attratto :D -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: Motosauro
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: Motosauro
Nella mia esperienza gli «Utonti» sono una
cut...
Ma questo non da diritto a considerare chi non
ne
capisce di informatica un essere
subumano.
Altrimenti le popolazioni del terzo mondo
analfabete e che vivono ancora nella
superstizione e ignoranza o più semplicemente
i
nostri nonni, bisogna cosiderarli
inferiori?
persone non degne di essere al nostro livello?
Diciamo invece che l'ignoranza informatica
dell'utenza va di pari passo con l'arroganza
di
molti informatici!
Che c'entrano i paesi in via di sviluppo?
Era un esempio di ignoranza generale.Che denota, forse, una punta di razzismo?
L'analfabeta tipo che non sa né leggere né
scrivere e non vuole impararlo ma che merita
comunque il rispetto del non essere chiamato
asino.Ma se l'analfabeta viene chiamato analfabeta non lo si sta insultando, lo si sta definendo.D'altronde se un analfabeta mi venisse a pontificare su come si tiene in mano la penna, o su come dovrebbero fare le penne in modo che a lui sia + congeniale prenderla in mano, io non credo che gli risponderei benissimo.
Come lo hai esposto tu sembra che l'ignoranza sia
una colpa e il non voler capire un
delitto.
credo che l'ignoranza sia il peggiore dei crimini.Non quando te la ritrovi addosso, come capita a noi tutti mortali, ma quando te la tieni stretta come una coperta.
Se non credi sia vero guardati un po di post
fatti da noi: tutti considerano tutti degli
utonti/n00bs/braccia rubate all'agricoltura.e quasi tutti hanno ragione.E' questo il vero dramma che ci dovrebbe preoccupare, non il fatot che qualcuno si possa ritenere offeso. -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Ma se l'analfabeta viene chiamato analfabeta non
lo si sta insultando, lo si sta
definendo.Ma se viene chiamato asino lo si offende, un po come con utonto.
D'altronde se un analfabeta mi venisse a
pontificare su come si tiene in mano la penna, o
su come dovrebbero fare le penne in modo che a
lui sia + congeniale prenderla in mano, io non
credo che gli risponderei
benissimo.Peccato. Un po di pazienza non guasta. Altrimenti se un giorno avrai un figlio come farai a insegnarli a vivere? a sberle? perché prima o poi ti considererà un matusa e vorrà sicuramente saperne più di te pur non avendo la tua esperienza.
Come lo hai esposto tu sembra che l'ignoranza
sia
una colpa e il non voler capire un
delitto.
credo che l'ignoranza sia il peggiore dei crimini.
Non quando te la ritrovi addosso, come capita a
noi tutti mortali, ma quando te la tieni stretta
come una
coperta.L'ignoranza porta a rimanere ignoranti perché ti mancano gli strumenti intelletuali per comprendere.Bisogna avere pazienza con l'utenza informatica finché non ci sarà un cambio generazionale.Per fortuna gli under-30 se la cavano nella maggior parte dei casi. -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Peccato. Un po di pazienza non guasta. Altrimenti
se un giorno avrai un figlio come farai a
insegnarli a vivere? a sberle? perché prima o poi
ti considererà un matusa e vorrà sicuramente
saperne più di te pur non avendo la tua
esperienza.
penso che la pazienza e la disponibilita' ad insegnare siano dovute SOLO a chi si dimostra effettivamente interessato e almeno altrettanto disponibile ad apprendere e ad impegnarsi. Per interessato e disponibile intendo chi ha gia' messo nel conto il "prezzo" da pagarei in termini di impegno, tempo e magari anche fatica.Chi questo prezzo non lo vuol pagare non puo' aspettarsi ragionevolmente che io gli possa infondere il mio sapere mentre sta passivo. Non puo' pensare che butti il mio tempo.Oltretutto vorrebbe dire sottrarre a qualcun altro, che invece e' sinceramente interessato, tempo e risorse preziose. -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
credo che l'ignoranza sia il peggiore dei crimini.
Non quando te la ritrovi addosso, come capita a
noi tutti mortali, ma quando te la tieni stretta
come una
coperta.qui devo quotare a manetta -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: doc allegato velenoso
credo che l'ignoranza sia il peggiore dei
crimini.
Non quando te la ritrovi addosso, come capita a
noi tutti mortali, ma quando te la tieni stretta
come una
coperta.
qui devo quotare a manettaNon confondete l'ignoranza con l'arroganza... -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: doc allegato velenoso
credo che l'ignoranza sia il peggiore dei
crimini.
Non quando te la ritrovi addosso, come capita
a
noi tutti mortali, ma quando te la tieni
stretta
come una
coperta.
qui devo quotare a manetta
Non confondete l'ignoranza con l'arroganza...l'arroganza e' quella di chi, completamente passivo, si aspetta da te impegno, disponibilita' e pazienza -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: dont feed the troll
D'altronde se un analfabeta mi venisse a
pontificare su come si tiene in mano la penna, o
su come dovrebbero fare le penne in modo che a
lui sia + congeniale prenderla in mano, io non
credo che gli risponderei
benissimo.Su questo punto hai torto marcio.Perché per una semplice questione di entropia, quello che non ha mai tenuto in mano la penna, probabilmente cercherà in modo istintivo di prenderla come si trova meglio (e non come glielo hanno insegnato a scuola) e probabilmente avrà una percezione per lo meno "diversa", se non "migliore" di come una penna dovrebbe essere fatta o come si dovrebbe prendere in mano.A quel punto l'umiltà dell'IT sta nell'accettare tutti i suggerimenti e smazzarsi per conciliarli o farli convergere.Si faceva l'esempio delle interfacce grafiche: credi che sarebbero mai state inventate se l'informatica fosse rimasta in mano agli informatici?Quando scrivo un programma, lascio la progettazione dell'interfaccia ad altri.Per me sono solo pezzi di codice che possono stare dove l'utente/il cliente vuole, ma per loro sono lo strumento ed è giusto che se lo plasmino come meglio credono.Io posso dare consigli in base alla mia esperienza con gli utenti/clienti che ho avuto in precedenza, ma finisce lì.Se invece rispondi male a tutti quelli che osano dirti la loro per il solo fatto che tu ne sai sicuramente di più (o ritieni di saperlo), allora sei a un passo dall'essere un Troll. -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
Era un esempio di ignoranza generale.
L'analfabeta tipo che non sa né leggere né
scrivere e non vuole impararlo ma che merita
comunque il rispetto del non essere chiamato
asino.ah no, chi non sa e NON VUOLE SAPERE a buon diritto può essere chiamato asino -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Sono piuttosto d'accordo con Motosauro.Vorrei ribadire però il concetto "So di non sapere".Non è l'ignoranza ad essere un problema.Tutti noi pretendiamo di sapere molto di più di quello che in realtà sappiamo. Ci sono mondi interi di conoscenza di cui neanche sospettiamo l'esistenza.A me non da noia l'utonto che non capisce il concetto "taglia, copia, incolla". A me da noia la persona che disprezza ciò che non capisce o non conosce. E, come dire, non è che questo fatto si verifichi solo quando c'è da visualizzare un dvx...Se si sostituisse "informatica" con "politica" direi che tutti i discorsi fatti prima rimangono validi.Altro errore è quello di usare l'utonto per autodefinirsi ubravo. E forse diverse persone (non solo gli informatici) soffrono di questo problema.
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Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
Freddo,Silicone,Chips = IgnoranzaInformatica :Io il silicone non lo associo ne col freddo ne con l'informatica... mi viene in mente aida yespica. -
Re: Utonti e Qualunquismo
ma parla come magni!
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AAA
C'è un problema di fondo. Per non arrivare a teorizzare l'origine divina del potere tecnologico incarnato nel operatore dell'IT occorre stabilire una volta per sempre senza se e senza ma lo scopo di SERVIZIO dell'opera prestata. A questo punto scompaiono gli utonti e riappaiono i tecnotonti. E abbiamo tutti da imparare. -
tergicristalli
il problema è che nel 90% dei casi la gente che si mette davanti al pc non ha la minima idea di cosa esso sia, come uno che si mette alla guida senza patente e dopo aver bocciato con la pioggia dice "nessuno mi ha detto che c'erano i tergicristalli e come funzionavano"-
Re: tergicristalli
e quindi?-
Re: tergicristalli
e quindi servirebbe un minimo di formazione, sopratutto nelle scuole. Ma anchei comuni, invece di perdere tempo in "corsi anti stupro" dovrebbero incentivare dei corsi gratuiti per i cittadini.
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Utonti?
L'uente normalmente è una persona che fa un mestiere diverso dal nostro nel quale, fino a prova contraria, è professionale e preparato come noi riteniamo di essere nel nostro. Inoltre fa parte della nostra professionalità comprendere le esigenze dei nostri clienti, e spiegare le nostre soluzioni con il loro lessico; altrimenti continueremo a essere visti come dei maghetti, cantinari, tecnici (nell'accezione più limitata del termine) e non quello che dovremmo essere, cioè seri professionisti.-
Re: Utonti?
- Scritto da: IT o non IT
L'uente normalmente è una persona che fa un
mestiere diverso dal nostro nel quale, fino a
prova contraria, è professionale e preparato come
noi riteniamo di essere nel nostro. Inoltre fa
parte della nostra professionalità comprendere le
esigenze dei nostri clienti, e spiegare le nostre
soluzioni con il loro lessico; altrimenti
continueremo a essere visti come dei maghetti,
cantinari, tecnici (nell'accezione più limitata
del termine) e non quello che dovremmo essere,
cioè seri professionisti.Ma a loro non interessa che gli venga spiegato nulla: se fossero persone "normali" non gli si sarebbe affibiato l'epiteto :D -
Re: Utonti?
- Scritto da: IT o non IT
L'uente normalmente è una persona che fa un
mestiere diverso dal nostro nel quale, fino a
prova contraria, è professionale e preparato come
noi riteniamo di essere nel nostro.Assolutamente d'accordo. Ad ognuno il suo lavoro.
altrimenti
continueremo a essere visti come dei maghetti,
cantinari, tecnici (nell'accezione più limitata
del termine) e non quello che dovremmo essere,
cioè seri professionisti.Dipende anche da chi ti trovi davanti. Il mio scopo, come tecnico IT, è far lavorare al meglio i miei utenti, risolvendo i loro problemi e, se possibile, prevenendoli. Poi ci sono utenti "curiosi" che, anche se non capiscono, almeno ci tentano e quelli che, anche se una procedura gliela spieghi 3000 volte, alla 3001 ti telefonano per chiederti come fare....-
Re: Utonti?
Poi ci sono utenti "curiosi" che, anche se non
capiscono, almeno ci tentano e quelli che, anche
se una procedura gliela spieghi 3000 volte, alla
3001 ti telefonano per chiederti come
fare....Questi ultimi non si chiamano utenti, né utonti. Si chiamano "XXXXXXXXXXXXX". O "cagaXXXXX".-
Re: Utonti?
- Scritto da: palle
Poi ci sono utenti "curiosi" che, anche se non
capiscono, almeno ci tentano e quelli che, anche
se una procedura gliela spieghi 3000 volte, alla
3001 ti telefonano per chiederti come fare....
Questi ultimi non si chiamano utenti, né utonti.
Si chiamano "XXXXXXXXXXXXX". O "cagaXXXXX".Da questa discussione sembra che fa tanto icZre e' che gli informatici hanno trovato un termine per definirli (rotfl)
-
-
-
-
ho la soluzione!
quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come funziona questa cosa?"io rispondo: "e' magia!"Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare tranquillo.-
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: attonito
quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come funziona
questa
cosa?"
io rispondo: "e' magia!"
Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare
tranquillo.E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto tutti e due!"-
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: attonito
quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come funziona
questa
cosa?"
io rispondo: "e' magia!"
Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare
tranquillo.
E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!
Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono
misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto
tutti e
due!"Se vengo a sapere che qualcuno dei miei ha dato una risposta del genere ad un utente finisce molto male.-
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome
- Scritto da: Steve Austin
- Scritto da: attonito
quando l'utonto di turno chiede: "come
funziona
questa
cosa?"
io rispondo: "e' magia!"
Lui e' contento e io continuo a lavorare
tranquillo.
E certe volte é la miglior risposta! Ben detta!
Anch'io rispondo spesso: "non si preoccupi, sono
misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto
tutti e
due!"
Se vengo a sapere che qualcuno dei miei ha dato
una risposta del genere ad un utente finisce
molto
male.Ma se devi spiegargli che hai configurato in maniera diversa lo script che regola l'ordinazione dei dati nella tabella e lui ti guarda smarrito tagli corto e finita lì.Mai avuto problemi a riguardo e il cliente mantiene la fiducia in me.-
Re: ho la soluzione!
Ma se devi spiegargli che hai configurato in
maniera diversa lo script che regola
l'ordinazione dei dati nella tabella e lui ti
guarda smarrito tagli corto e finita
lì.
Mai avuto problemi a riguardo e il cliente
mantiene la fiducia in
me.Sai che una dote importantissima per il consulente e' spiegare in maniera semplici concetti difficili a persone che non sono del mestiere? Se non riesci a spiegargli in maniera convincente perche' non gli tornano i dati come pensi di vendergli un sistema? -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome
Ma se devi spiegargli che hai configurato in
maniera diversa lo script che regola
l'ordinazione dei dati nella tabella e lui ti
guarda smarrito tagli corto e finita
lì.
Mai avuto problemi a riguardo e il cliente
mantiene la fiducia in
me.
Sai che una dote importantissima per il
consulente e' spiegare in maniera semplici
concetti difficili a persone che non sono del
mestiere? Se non riesci a spiegargli in maniera
convincente perche' non gli tornano i dati come
pensi di vendergli un
sistema?Non sto parlando di vendite, sto parlando di riparazione di una tabella (leggiti bene sopra)Se segui tutto il post sono partito dall'affermazione:"non si preoccupi, sono misteri nostri, se le funziona siamo a posto tutti e due!"quindi la riparazione é stata fatta e al cliente tutto torna! -
Re: ho la soluzione!
Non sto parlando di vendite, sto parlando di
riparazione di una tabella (leggiti bene
sopra)
Se segui tutto il post sono partito
dall'affermazione:
"non si preoccupi, sono misteri nostri, se le
funziona siamo a posto tutti e
due!"
quindi la riparazione é stata fatta e al cliente
tutto
torna!E ti ripeto se ti riduci ad usare la parola "mistero", "magia" per spiegare un concetto che teoricamente tu conosci perfettamente, significa che non sei in grado di rendere semplice il concetto (o che non ti vuoi nemmeno sbattere per spiegarglielo). Se non sai fare questo su una cosa estremamente banale come una modifica ad uno script, figurati come spiegherai ad un possibile compratore come il sistema che gli vuoi vendere potra' dargli dei vantaggi. -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome
Non sto parlando di vendite, sto parlando di
riparazione di una tabella (leggiti bene
sopra)
Se segui tutto il post sono partito
dall'affermazione:
"non si preoccupi, sono misteri nostri, se le
funziona siamo a posto tutti e
due!"
quindi la riparazione é stata fatta e al cliente
tutto
torna!
E ti ripeto se ti riduci ad usare la parola
"mistero", "magia" per spiegare un concetto che
teoricamente tu conosci perfettamente, significa
che non sei in grado di rendere semplice il
concetto (o che non ti vuoi nemmeno sbattere per
spiegarglielo).
Se non sai fare questo su una cosa estremamente
banale come una modifica ad uno script, Proprio perché é banale ed é squisitamente tecnicismo non mi dilungo a spiegazione nel dettaglio.Il problema é risolto.figurati
come spiegherai ad un possibile compratore come
il sistema che gli vuoi vendere potra' dargli dei
vantaggi. -
Re: ho la soluzione!
Proprio perché é banale ed é squisitamente
tecnicismo non mi dilungo a spiegazione nel
dettaglio.
Il problema é risolto.
quoto ...gli utonti hanno più rispetto per gli idraulici che per gli informatici ...forse perchè un idraulico con una chiave inglese in mano fa pauraquando è XXXXXXXXX un informatico con una tastiera meno ...in fondo però sturano cessi ,dalla mattina alla sera ,tutti e due -
Re: ho la soluzione!
quoto ...
gli utonti hanno più rispetto per gli idraulici
che per gli informatici
...
forse perchè un idraulico con una chiave inglese
in mano fa
paura
quando è XXXXXXXXX
un informatico con una tastiera meno ...
in fondo però sturano cessi ,dalla mattina alla
sera
,
tutti e dueallora perché non cambi mestiere? -
Re: ho la soluzione!
in che paese lavori? -
Re: ho la soluzione!
A parte che vendere e' roba che riguarda i
markettari commerciali, e non gli informatici, miEh gia... poi vi lamentante se le aziende considerano il dipartimento IT alla stregua del bidone della carta riciclata.
chiedo che cosa ti risponde a te il biologo
quando gli vai a chiedere come ha ricavato quel
valore di concentrazione di emoglobina che ha
scritto sul referto e che conseguenze abbia con
la tua dieta
vegetariana.Secondo te un biologo mi risponde "e' magia"? Hai idea delle domande che si sente rivolgere un medico? Se il tuo medico ti trattasse come i sedicenti IT che scrivono qui trattano i propri utenti (clienti) verrebbe denunciato all'ordine. -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome
A parte che vendere e' roba che riguarda i
markettari commerciali, e non gli informatici,
mi
Eh gia... poi vi lamentante se le aziende
considerano il dipartimento IT alla stregua del
bidone della carta riciclata.Ma che relazione ha questa tua frase con quella a cui hai risposto ???
chiedo che cosa ti risponde a te il biologo
quando gli vai a chiedere come ha ricavato quel
valore di concentrazione di emoglobina che ha
scritto sul referto e che conseguenze abbia con
la tua dieta vegetariana.
Secondo te un biologo mi risponde "e' magia"? Hai
idea delle domande che si sente rivolgere un
medico? Se il tuo medico ti trattasse come i
sedicenti IT che scrivono qui trattano i propri
utenti (clienti) verrebbe denunciato all'ordine.Forse perche' la gente non va dal medico a pretendere di insegnargli il mestiere solo perche' ha un manuale di pronto soccorso a casa (che non ha letto). -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: krane
- Scritto da: nome e cognome
A parte che vendere e' roba che riguarda i
markettari commerciali, e non gli informatici,
mi
Eh gia... poi vi lamentante se le aziende
considerano il dipartimento IT alla stregua del
bidone della carta riciclata.
Ma che relazione ha questa tua frase con quella a
cui hai risposto
???Ok, vediamo di fare anche i passaggi logici intermed, a volte do per scontate cose che chi e' troppo "green" del mondo del lavoro fatica a comprendere:vendere e' roba che riguarda il marketing -
tutti quelli che in azienda hanno rapporti col cliente contribuiscono alla vendita -
vendere non e' solo roba da markettari e commerciali -
un IT che non contribuisce alla vendita e' un IT inutile.
Forse perche' la gente non va dal medico a
pretendere di insegnargli il mestiere solo
perche' ha un manuale di pronto soccorso a casa
(che non ha
letto).Forse perche' non hai un amico medico... prova ad andare dal tuo medico curante e chiedigli qualche aneddotto, altro che storie della sala macchine solo che mai e poi mai ti sentirai rispondere da un medico "quale parte di dopo i pasti non ha capito?" -
Re: ho la soluzione!
Rigiriamo la frittata.
Far funzionare la rete aziendale, annessi e
connessi e' roba che riguarda
l'IT.Vero, e tra questi compiti c'e' la sicurezza di rete giusto?
Un utonto markettaro commerciale che non
contribuisce al buon funzionamento della rete
aziendale e degli strumenti informatici e' unE come fa l'utente markettaro a far funzionare male la rete informatica? Girala meglio la frittata.
utonto markettaro commerciale
inutile.E perche' mai? L'azienda vive di rete o di vendite? Ripeto, la prima cosa da capire quando si lavora e' chi paga? Fatti la domanda e datti una risposta: perche' un commerciale con 10 anni di esperienza prende 60/70 mila euro l'anno con provigioni/auto, ecc mentre un sistemista con 10 anni di esperienza se va bene ne prende 30?
Alla terza volta che si sentono dire dal paziente
"ma devo prendere la pillola prima o dopo
mangiato", magari gli cambiano prescrizione, e
gli dicono di somministrarsi una supposta
XXL.Stai tranquillo che non lo fanno visto quello che rischiano: hai visto troppi film di Lino Banfi. -
Re: ho la soluzione!
E come fa l'utente markettaro a far funzionare
male la rete informatica? Girala meglio la
frittata.
Quando l'IT alla domanda "Installami questo e
quello, dammi i permessi per fare questo e
quello", risponde "quale parte di NO non hai
capito", allora la rete e' sufficientemente
sicura.Questo e' un IT che dura poco. Non ti costa niente spiegare perche' non puoi dare i permessi e perche' non puoi installare questo e quello.
Quando invece l'IT viene preso a male parole
perche' ha osato dire di NO al capo, allora la
rete non e' sufficientemente
sicura.Perche' l'IT non sa relazionarsi, dire NO al capo non e' una buona soluzione... motivare il NO al capo e' la cosa giusta da fare.
Tu sei troppo abituato a farti benvolere dai
capoccia, tanto scarichi la colpa sul ragazzetto
di
turno.Certo perche' secondo te me la cavo dicendo "E' colpa sua?", tu sei troppo abituato allo scantinato e non sai che comunque un responsabile e' tale proprio perche' risponde... con l'unica differenza che io posso essere realmente cacciato in qualsiasi momento.
E perche' mai? L'azienda vive di rete o di
vendite?
Le vendite vivono di rete.Tu sai che si vendeva anche prima dell'avvento dei computer?
Oppure torna a usare la macchina da scrivere.Credi che sarebbe un grosso problema? Spegni tutto, gli utenti si lamenteranno ma stai tranquillo che riusciranno comunque a fare il loro lavoro, magari ci metteranno di piu' ma non credere che l'IT sia assolutamente indispensabile.
Ripeto, la prima cosa da capire quando
si lavora e' chi paga?
No, la prima cosa da capire quando si lavora e'
"Chi e' il
responsabile."Quello e' l'approccio da bassa manovalanza...
L'IT ha delle responsabilita' in azienda che
neppure quello che paga
possiede.
Privacy, sicurezza dei dati del cliente, segreti
industriali...E quindi? A parte che quei dati da qualche parte arrivano...
Fatti la domanda e datti
una risposta: perche' un commerciale con 10 anni
di esperienza prende 60/70 mila euro l'anno con
provigioni/auto, ecc mentre un sistemista con 10
anni di esperienza se va bene ne prende 30?
Se il tuo metro e' quello, allora c'e' poco
confronto.Si, io lavoro per vivere.
Io faccio il mio lavoro perche' mi piace, perche'
lo so fare e perche' ci
credo.
Quello che mi entra in tasca e' secondario.Quindi non sei stimolato in alcun modo dal fare qualcosa di piu' fai il giusto e stop?
Se mi interessassero solo i soldi potrei
prostituirmi, spacciare droga, oppure andare a
raccontar balle ai clienti come un qualsiasi
markettaro.E chi ti dice che lo sapresti fare bene?
Che cosa rischiano? Hanno cambiato prescrizione
ad un paziente che avrebbe potuto prendere la
pillola a stomaco vuoto, con una supposta che
puo' essere presa anche a stomaco
vuoto.
Hanno fatto il loro dovere.
E tu sei prevenuto.Ti ripeto, un medico a fare il cretino con i pazienti rischia grosso. -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: nome e cognome
Questo e' un IT che dura poco. Non ti costa
niente spiegare perche' non puoi dare i permessi
e perche' non puoi installare questo e
quello.Chissa perche' ho visto questo atteggiamento nella piu' grande impresa nazionale (forse)
Perche' l'IT non sa relazionarsi, dire NO al capo
non e' una buona soluzione... motivare il NO al
capo e' la cosa giusta da fare.Certo...sempre colpa nostra...sempre
Certo perche' secondo te me la cavo dicendo "E'
colpa sua?", tu sei troppo abituato allo
scantinato e non sai che comunque un responsabile
e' tale proprio perche' risponde... con l'unica
differenza che io posso essere realmente cacciato
in qualsiasi momento.Invece il ragazzino a 1000 euro sotto minaccia come si dovrebbe sentire?
Credi che sarebbe un grosso problema? Spegni
tutto, gli utenti si lamenteranno ma stai
tranquillo che riusciranno comunque a fare il
loro lavoro, magari ci metteranno di piu' ma non
credere che l'IT sia assolutamente
indispensabile.Visto che parlavi di grandi aziende....chiedi a qualsiasi azienda con 500+ dipendenti di spegnere i computer e anche con calma tornare a lavorare
Si, io lavoro per vivere.Anche quelli dell'IT...se a volte venissero pagati meglio
Quindi non sei stimolato in alcun modo dal fare
qualcosa di piu' fai il giusto e stop?Quando c'e' la passione si hanno molti piu' stimoli invece
Ti ripeto, un medico a fare il cretino con i
pazienti rischia
grosso.Il sistemista invece che trafuga dati sensibili no invece -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: panda rossa
Quindi che cosa ha bisogno di che cosa?Mi viene in mente la storiella sul buco del cu*o che voleva fare il capo del corpo umano.Però vedo in entrambi una certa dose di malcelato disprezzo verso qualunque reparto che non sia il vostro, visto come una sorta di peso parassitico.Invece la ditta, ogni ditta, anzi, ogni organizzazione, è fatta da una sinergia di reparti che collaborano al fine di raggiungere lo scopo comune.E comunque tutti sono rimpiazzabili (tranne il proprietario) -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: Momento di inerzia
- Scritto da: panda rossa
Quindi che cosa ha bisogno di che cosa?
Mi viene in mente la storiella sul buco del cu*o
che voleva fare il capo del corpo umano.Link o racconta... (rotfl)
Però vedo in entrambi una certa dose di malcelato
disprezzo verso qualunque reparto che non sia il
vostro, visto come una sorta di peso parassitico.Che e' da una parte capita a tutte le categorie, dall'altra e' una difesa contro il fatto che a volte il sistemista viene visto come una sorta di peso parassitico, come anche dimostrato da alcune affermazioni in questa discussione.
Invece la ditta, ogni ditta, anzi, ogni
organizzazione, è fatta da una sinergia di
reparti che collaborano al fine di raggiungere lo
scopo comune.In teoria si, in pratica poi gli sczi interni...
E comunque tutti sono rimpiazzabili (tranne il
proprietario)Anche lui ;) -
Re: ho la soluzione!
- Scritto da: krane
Mi viene in mente la storiella sul buco del cu*o
che voleva fare il capo del corpo umano.
Link o racconta... (rotfl)Si trova in varie versioni.Questa è la prima che salta fuori da Googlehttp://www.criminale.it/testi.php?cat=0&pagina=1&view=22La vera morale della storia (e non della storiella che racconta) è che tutti servono a tutti, quindi mi fa un po' ridere il discorso "l'IT serve al commerciale; no, non è vero è il commerciale che serve all'IT"
Che e' da una parte capita a tutte le categorie,vero
dall'altra e' una difesa contro il fatto che a
volte il sistemista viene visto come una sorta di
peso parassitico, come anche dimostrato da alcune
affermazioni in questa
discussione.può darsi, ma è anche vero, come dicevo altrove in questa discussione, che il sistemista non fa molto per attirarsi simpatie, spesso preso da deliri di onnipotenza (la so anche io la storiella che si conclude con "l'admin E' Dio") e saccenza.Per esempio mi è capitato di interfacciarmi con il reparto tecnico di un noto ed economico fornitore di hosting perché gli utenti del mio sito lamentavano tutti (circa 500 al giorno) che l'acXXXXX era lento.La loro risposta a priori è stata che era tutto a posto e che avrei fatto meglio a controllare la mia configurazione hardware.E quando ho fatto loro presente che non era credibile che 500 utenti sparsi in tutta Italia avessero improvvisamente qualche problema di configurazione solo per l'acecsso al mio sito, mi hanno risposto che evidentemente si trattava di problemi inerenti la visualizzazione di risorse esterne come il televideo o la borsa in tempo reale sulle mie pagine.Cosa che ovviamente non esisteva.Solo alla terza mail qualcosa si è mosso, dopo le mie minacce di escalare il ticket direttamente ai piani alti tramite avvocati.
Invece la ditta, ogni ditta, anzi, ogni
organizzazione, è fatta da una sinergia di
reparti che collaborano al fine di raggiungere
lo
scopo comune.
In teoria si, in pratica poi gli sczi interni...Eh, ma non riesco a giustificare con gli sczi (small companies' zany interface?) interni affermazioni di un noto sito di sala macchine in cui si pontifica di caching per poi copiare le pagine html ottenute con un editor di testo direttamente dentro al database.Oppure dove ci si lamenta che il programmatore fa 1000 query per tirare fuori una paginetta HTML.Se quella paginetta HTML ha bisogno di 1000 o 10000 query, tu sistemista devi dare per scontato che il programmatore sia un professionista e abbia già ottimizzato il suo codice.Quindi ti rimbocchi le maniche e ottimizzi le macchine per gestire l'applicazione così com'è.Se non ce la fai o non è possibile, vai al reparto acquisti e chiedi macchine più performanti, spiegando che servono per il nuovo applicativo che fa 10000 query per una pagina.Così il reparto acquisti fa a sincerarsi dal programmatore se non si può ottimizzare quella cavolo di pagina web ed eventualmente sgancia la lira per il nuovo server.Secondo me una ditta sana lavora in questo modo circolare, se proprio non riesce a lavorare in sinergia.Lamentarsi e basta non serve a niente.
E comunque tutti sono rimpiazzabili (tranne il
proprietario)
Anche lui ;)Beh, si, se vende la ditta o la chiude e mette tutti a spasso ;) -
Re: ho la soluzione!
Credi che sarebbe un grosso problema? Spegni
tutto, gli utenti si lamenteranno ma stai
tranquillo che riusciranno comunque a fare il
loro lavoro, magari ci metteranno di piu' ma non
credere che l'IT sia assolutamente
indispensabile.Ahahhauhauhauuah la XXXXXXX del secolo!!!!!Che IT sia anche integrare decine di sistemi sparsi per il mondo, ognuno con una tecnologia diversa??? NooooMa mi faccia il piacere mi faccia....
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