Mister Xbox risponde per le rime a Forbes

Robbie Bach, presidente del dipartimento gaming in Microsoft, in un intervista fiume spiega quale sarà la strategia commerciale della nuova console e come darà filo da torcere a Sony


Roma – Le dichiarazioni di Forbes riguardanti il buco finanziario provocato dalla divisione Xbox sono ancora al centro di un’accesa discussione. Robbie Bach , presidente del dipartimento Microsoft nell’occhio del ciclone, ha deciso di farsi intervistare da IDC per far luce sulla questione.

Sui 4 miliardi di dollari di investimenti, che secondo Forbes rappresentano un buco nero nel bilancio del big di Redmond, Bach ha ammesso l’enormità della spesa ma ha anche sottolineato che ora Microsoft può dichiarare tranquillamente che in meno di 4 anni ha conquistato la seconda posizione mondiale nel settore videoludico . Un obiettivo che permetterà in futuro con Xbox 360 di ottenere maggiori introiti, perché la base di partenza è già stata costituita. “(…) e poi, quando guadagna in franchise un prodotto come Halo?”, ha dichiarato Bach.

Già, perché una delle critiche che hanno mosso alcuni analisti nei confronti delle affermazioni di Forbes riguarderebbe proprio la questione delle licenze . Ken Kutaragi stesso, presidente Sony Computer Entertainment , ha più volte ammesso che le perdite sullo sviluppo e la produzione dell’hardware sono scontate. Sony il primo anno (2000) con la Playstation 2 perse 458 milioni di dollari, ma nel secondo e terzo anno di commercializzazione rientrò con un profitto di 1,8 miliardi di dollari proveniente dalle licenze e dalle royalty su videogiochi, libri, gadget e quant’altro.

Non ci sono dati precisi sui costi di produzione di Xbox 360 ma sul fronte avverso, quello della Playstation, secondo Merrill Lynch Japan Sony è già pronta a giocare al ribasso, andando a perdere, stimano gli analisti, fino a 100 dollari per ogni futura PS3 venduta (sempre che il prezzo di listino si mantenga, come dichiarato, sui 399 dollari).

A parte la battaglia sui prezzi , Bach è convinto che la nuova console farà meglio rispetto alla prima versione. “Dal punto di vista prestazionale potremo essere avvantaggiati in alcuni campi e Sony in altri, ma la vera sfida si accenderà sul software design e i servizi aggiuntivi. Xbox Live, ad esempio, è decisamente avanti rispetto alla concorrenza”, ha confermato Bach.

La scelta di Microsoft, però, di rendere disponibili due versioni di Xbox 360 – una con drive e più accessori e l’altra light – ha piuttosto stupito gli appassionati. Bach ha spiegato che l’obiettivo era quello di diversificare l’offerta commerciale per rispondere adeguatamente a tutte le esigenze. “In Europa, soprattutto, i listini e le grandi catene di distribuzione sono sensibili a queste scelte”, ha spiegato Bach. “Comunque tutti i nuovi giochi saranno compatibili con entrambe le versioni; gli sviluppatori hanno svolto il loro lavoro senza concentrarsi troppo sugli hard drive”.

Affermazioni che sembrerebbero chiudere la questione ma che probabilmente non tengono conto della querelle della scorsa primavera fra ATI , sviluppatore del core video di Xbox 360, e Nvidia , sviluppatore del core video di Playstation 3, sul supporto dei vecchi giochi . La soluzione con o senza drive risponde sicuramente ad esigenze commerciali, ma anche di retro-compatibilità . Tanto più che solo il modello premium supporta i giochi Xbox – quello light ha bisogno del drive optional. Microsoft è stata costretta, infatti, a pagare delle royalty a Nvidia per permettere ad ATI di emulare il vecchio chipset, in modo che la compatibilità potesse essere certa con tutti i titoli.

Sul supporto HD-DVD Bach non si è sbilanciato, anche se Microsoft ha apertamente dichiarato che le future versioni di Xbox 360 saranno compatibili con i nuovi supporti ad alta definizione.

Il settore videoludico è in fermento per l’avvicinarsi delle date fatidiche del 22 novembre, 2 e 10 dicembre, quando avverrà il lancio ufficiale di Xbox 360 rispettivamente negli Stati Uniti, Europa e Giappone. Qualcuno, però si è già sbilanciato. Secondo Takashi Oya, analista di Deutsche Securities, del Gruppo Deutsche Bank , Microsoft otterrà già un buon risultato se riuscirà a raggiungere una share del 10% sul mercato giapponese. IDC ha previsto che le vendite nel Sol Levante di Xbox 360 toccheranno quota 3,5 milioni entro il 2009, forse poco se confrontate con le 8 milioni di unità di Sony Playstation 3. Si vedrà.

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  • Anonimo scrive:
    Wikipedia, sforzo inutile
    Wikipedia è di proprietà di un miliardario che ha tutti i diritti sugli articoli pubblicati. Un giorno, quando Wikipedia sarà diventata un prodotto valido a tutti gli effetti, questo individuo la metterà a pagamento ringraziando con chicchiere i migliaia di autori che l'hanno fatta crescere e lucrando sul bisogno di sapere dell'uomo contemporaneo.Wikipedia è un progetto che deve essere fermato. Ma non per la validità del progetto in sè, ma per l'individuo che c'è dietro.
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia, sforzo inutile
      Be... bella minchiata che hai scritto :)Peccato che ogni articolo sia sotto la Gnu Free Documentation License:http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia, sforzo inutile
        - Scritto da: Anonimo
        Be... bella minchiata che hai scritto :)

        Peccato che ogni articolo sia sotto la Gnu Free
        Documentation License:

        http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.htmle cosa credi che sia la Gnu Free Documentation License? Te lo dico io... fumo!ricorda amico, in nessunissima parte del mondo puoi vincere una causa portando un documento senza firma classica o digitalema avete mai notato su sourgeforce che fine fanno il 90% dei progetti appena raggiungono la versione 1.0? Te lo dico sempre io... diventano commerciali!!!poveri ingenui (rotfl)
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia, sforzo inutile
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      Wikipedia è di proprietà di un miliardario che ha
      tutti i diritti sugli articoli pubblicati. AHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH GRANDE! RIDICOLO! AHAHAHAHAHAH Bene, anche oggi due risate alle spalle del troll di turno.
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia, sforzo inutile
        Si certo, infatti sto pagando fior di quattrini per navigare con Opera 8.5 e Firefox 1.0.7, nonchè per OpenOffice DUE BETA!Tutti progetti che dopo la versione 1.0 sono diventati.. COMMERCIALI!
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia, sforzo inutile

      Wikipedia è un progetto che deve essere fermato.
      Ma non per la validità del progetto in sè, ma per
      l'individuo che c'è dietro.certo certo, non sei tu che sei paranoico, sono gli altri che tramano contro di te
  • Anonimo scrive:
    altro test
    c'è un altro interessante test fatto da IBM quihttp://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/history/index.htmche arriva alle stessa conclusioni dell'articolo.
  • Anonimo scrive:
    wikipedia offline
    mi chiedevo...esiste una versione scaricabile in modo da poterla usare anche quando non posso collegarmi ad internet?ho cercato su wikipedia, ma non ho trovato nulla..
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: wikipedia offline
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      mi chiedevo...

      esiste una versione scaricabile in modo da
      poterla usare anche quando non posso collegarmi ad internet?

      ho cercato su wikipedia, ma non ho trovato nulla..Basta scaricarla con uno spider, ma mi pare che la versione inglese abbia qualche terabyte...
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: wikipedia offline
      la versione tedesca è stata distribuita su CD (+ di 1, suppongo)non ho i riferimenti; l'ho letto in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: wikipedia offline
      Per la versione offline è necessario scaricare un po' di programmi:*Mediawiki*MySQL*Apache*PHPLe istruzioni per l'installazione e l'uso le puoi trovare qui:http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:InstallationPer il momento questo è l'unico modo per avere una versione offline equivalente a quella online. In futuro verranno sicuramente distribuiti, anche in Italia, versioni in DVD (in Germania sono già in distribuzione) supportotate da un semplice wiki-reader.
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: wikipedia offline
        NON USARE SPIDER se non vuoi che la proverbiale lentezza dei server aumenti a dismisura...il dump del database è disponibile su http://download.wikimedia.org
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: wikipedia offline
          - Scritto da: Anonimo
          NON USARE SPIDER se non vuoi che la proverbiale
          lentezza dei server aumenti a dismisura...

          il dump del database è disponibile su
          http://download.wikimedia.orgChe si può usare, volendo, anche senza installare i software legati al progetto (a parte le dimensioni del relativo file XML).
  • Anonimo scrive:
    Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
    al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità, credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non ci hanno insegnato niente
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene
      molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità,
      credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella
      creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima
      dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nienteun'affermazione basata sul nulla :)affidabilissimo :)
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho
      contiene molte inesattezze, incompletezze
      e faziosità, credo che concentrare il sapere
      nel mondo nella creatura di Jim Wales
      rappresenterebbe l'ennesima dimostrazione
      che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nienteOk, se domani chiudono improvvisamente tutte le case editrici che fanno enciclopedie, smettono di produrre libri di testo scolastico e tutti si mettono a scrivere e leggere o scrivere su wikipedia mi preoccupo anche io.Fino ad allora mi sembra solo che chi fa affermazioni come le tue sia un estremista delirante.
    • dromosz scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      A parte che dicendo "comunismo" e "mostro" ti sei assicurato dei sostenitori gratis.Mi spieghi che cosa hai detto? Magari con qualche ragione.Sennò il gioco non funziona appena uno accende il cervello.
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene
      molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità,
      credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella
      creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima
      dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nientese è vero allora viva il comunismo... grazie marx che ci hai portato wikipedia!
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
        - Scritto da: Anonimo
        se è vero allora viva il comunismo... grazie marx
        che ci hai portato wikipedia!ah dimenticavo... ora vado subito ad aggiornare la pagina di marx specificando che è lui l'ideatore di wikipedia... i capitoli mancanti del capitale erano certamente dedicati alla nostra enciclopedia preferita.
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
          E' una affermazione assurda!Poveretto,i mass media ti hanno fatto del male!!!Se fosse anche vero(cosa che non riesco a concepire perchè priva di senso) è sempre meglio che un totalitarismo unilaterale della cultura da parte della destra!Se non lo sai ai tempi di mussolini si erano addirittura inventati un modo di parlare al popolo,allora viva Dio se la cultra è comunista!!!
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      "Mostro del comunismo"... :D :D ah, ah, ah!!Certa gente è peggio dei cani di Pavlov in quanto a riflessi condizionati.Te lo dico da amico (o da genitore, se preferisci): fatti curare perchè, imho, potresti diventare pericoloso. ;)
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene
      molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità,
      credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella
      creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima
      dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nienteche dire ad un commento del genere? .... povero a te...
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      tutto ciò che gira intorno al mondo Wiki-Linux-Open Source-firefox è comunista. Il succo sta tutto qui.In fondo usare un software o un altro diventerà una scelta di campo nei prossimi mesi.
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
        - Scritto da: Anonimo
        tutto ciò che gira intorno al mondo
        Wiki-Linux-Open Source-firefox è comunista. Il
        succo sta tutto qui.
        In fondo usare un software o un altro diventerà
        una scelta di campo nei prossimi mesi.Ma scusa QNX secondo te che "bandiera politica (rotfl)" ha .... E Beos ?
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
          qui si parla di wiki
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
            - Scritto da: Anonimo
            qui si parla di wikiSono daccordo, ma mi chiedo allora perche' la gente parla di comunismo / rosso / nero / giallo ??? Pensavo fosse il forum di Iridella e i mangiacolori
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
        ma sì, dai, come al solito diamo una valenza politica a qualsiasi cosa.allora andiamo avanti: la mortadella è di destra o di sinistra? (citazione cinematografica)ma smettiamola!
    • grassman scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene
      molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità,
      credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella
      creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima
      dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nienteSe wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo, io sono fiero di essere comunista.Sono fiero di poter contribuire allo sviluppo di una fonte di cultura gratuita e aperta a tutti.Finora le culture destrofile hanno sempre cercato la contrapposizione dei popoli, le guerre,le egemonie, il potere.Adesso che i popoli si uniscono per gli stessi fini, amichevolmente e con vantaggio di tutti, si dice che è comunista quindi pericolosa.Questo significa essere comunisti? O forse significa aver fatto un passo in avanti per lo sviluppo del genere umano?Possibile che non riuscite che a vedere del male là dove non c'è?Possibile che continuiate a commettere reati per copiare la encarta e poi dire che è meglio di wikipedia?
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
        non ci vuole molto a capire come la pensi... :@
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
        Concordo, la libertà e lo sviluppo reciproco dovrebbero stare al primo posto di OGNI fazione politica moderna..Parlando nello specifico di wikipedia, vorrei ricordare che si tratta di uno sviluppo tecnologico e non politico..dare del comunista a wikipedia ha lo stesso valore di dare del comunista ad internet (in fondo si tratta di una rete più o meno astratta sulla quale vengono scambiate informazioni tra più macchine/umani), o ad un'automobile o ad una banana...Comunque, se vogliamo calcare la mano ed associare la scienza politica a quella matematica/tecnologica allora mettiamo la cosa in questi termini:Se non è comunista fare una conversazione a 2 su un argomento neutro, allora non lo è fare una conversazione con più persone in un bar, dunque non lo è fare un dibattito con diverse persone competenti della materia in un'assemblea, di conseguenza non lo è neanche il voler verbalizzare queste discussioni una volta raggiunta una posizione di accordo tra i partecipanti.Ma l'ideatore del post iniziale, ritenendo comunista wikipedia, nega l'ultima parte del periodo precedente, e siccome mi è parso di seguire un ragionamento decisamente logico, l'unico modo che si verifichi la falsità di quella parte, è che siano sbagliate le premesse, ovvero che una conversazione a 2 su un argomento qualunque è una pratica comunista...Gran brutte cose accadono quando si mischiano tra loro 2 percorsi di sviluppo paralleli e completamente inpendenti, quali la tecnologia e la politica, nevvero?
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      Wikipedia e' stata esaltata da Beppe Grillo, a sua volta giudicato come "eroe europeo" da Time:http://www.time.com/time/europe/hero2005/grillo.htmlil Time! nota pubblicazione bolscevica :Dil fatto che alla stesura di Wikipedia constribuisca una "collettivita'" non implica che il collettivismo sia ideologico quindi comunismo ... anche i formicai e gli alveari si basano su "collettivita'" ... mi vedo gia l'autore di questo post delirante, che sorrazza in campagna a calpestare formicai al grido di: formiche comuniste!!!!Stai attento, Cornacchione e gli autori di Zelig potrebbero farti causa per plagio.
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo

        ... anche i formicai e gli alveari si basano su
        "collettivita'" ... mi vedo gia l'autore di
        questo post delirante, che sorrazza in campagna a
        calpestare formicai al grido di: formiche
        comuniste!!!!infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con un dittatore, alias la Regina
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
          - Scritto da: Anonimo

          ... anche i formicai e gli alveari si basano su

          "collettivita'" ... mi vedo gia l'autore di

          questo post delirante, che sorrazza in campagna
          a

          calpestare formicai al grido di: formiche

          comuniste!!!!

          infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico
          schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con un
          dittatore, alias la ReginaQuindi i Borg e i Cylon (cylon) sono comunisti :| .Cambia pusher che è meglio
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
            - Scritto da: Anonimo

            infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico

            schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con un dittatore, alias la Regina

            Quindi i Borg e i Cylon (cylon) sono comunisti
            :| .
            Cambia pusher che è meglioPer non parlare dei puffi, generatori di un'intera generazione di no-global debosciati
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
            - Scritto da: Anonimo
            - Scritto da: Anonimo


            infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il
            tipico


            schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con
            un dittatore, alias la Regina



            Quindi i Borg e i Cylon (cylon) sono comunisti

            :| .

            Cambia pusher che è meglio

            Per non parlare dei puffi, generatori di
            un'intera generazione di no-global debosciatiMai visti. Sono cresciuto con i film di Cicciolina e John Holmes :p .
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
            - Scritto da: Anonimo



            infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico



            schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con un dittatore, alias la Regina





            Quindi i Borg e i Cylon (cylon) sono comunisti :| .


            Cambia pusher che è meglio



            Per non parlare dei puffi, generatori di

            un'intera generazione di no-global debosciati

            Mai visti. Sono cresciuto con i film di Cicciolina e John Holmes :p .Che più comunella di quelli... :(
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
          - Scritto da: Anonimo

          ... anche i formicai e gli alveari si basano su

          "collettivita'" ... mi vedo gia l'autore di

          questo post delirante, che sorrazza in

          campagna a
          calpestare formicai al grido

          di: formiche comuniste!!!!
          infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico
          schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali
          con un dittatore, alias la ReginaMa le formiche rosse sono piu' comuniste di quelle nere ??? E le tagliatoglie ? Sono formiche comunisto - Rastafariane ?? :o
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
          - Scritto da: Anonimo
          infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico
          schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con un
          dittatore, alias la ReginaCazzata!
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
          - Scritto da: Anonimo

          formiche comuniste!!!!
          infatti i formicai e gli alveari sono il tipico
          schema di società comuniste: tutti uguali con
          un dittatore, alias la ReginaL'ho sempre detto io che i forzaitalioti sono comunisti repressi che hanno solo bisogno di una regina/Berlusconi...
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene
      molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità,
      credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella
      creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima
      dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nienteChe montagna di stronzate
    • Fabi3tto scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      Raga, state sprecando troppo tempo con un semplice troll in vena di farsi un pò di risate.Lasciatelo perdere!!
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Wikipedia è un mostro del comunismo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      al di la' del fatto che wikipedia imho contiene
      molte inesattezze, incompletezze e faziosità,
      credo che concentrare il sapere nel mondo nella
      creatura di Jim Wales rappresenterebbe l'ennesima
      dimostrazione che centinaia di anni di storia non
      ci hanno insegnato nienteI comunisti anche in Wikipedia :eh no, questa no, mi mancava ! (rotfl) (rotfl)
  • Anonimo scrive:
    È un test non significativo
    Ma questo è stato un test delle balle!Il tizio che ha fatto il test, ha inserito un articolo col titolo "Improve this article about Wikipedia" e il testo spiegava chiaramente che era un test!!! Ma che cavolo di verifica è?Un test significativo sarebbe stato scrivere un articolo vero, con qualche inesattezza sottile ma significativa, e vedere se e come sarebbe stato corretto.Purtroppo, a volte, capita davvero che delle inesattezze anche macroscopiche sopravvivano a lungo in un articolo. Secondo me è un fatto inevitabile e che tutto sommato si può accettare.Wizardhttp://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Wizard
    • Cavallo GolOso scrive:
      Re: È un test non significativo
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      Ma questo è stato un test delle balle!

      Il tizio che ha fatto il test, ha inserito un
      articolo col titolo "Improve this article about
      Wikipedia" e il testo spiegava chiaramente che
      era un test!!! Ma che cavolo di verifica è?

      Un test significativo sarebbe stato scrivere un
      articolo vero, con qualche inesattezza sottile ma
      significativa, e vedere se e come sarebbe stato
      corretto.

      Purtroppo, a volte, capita davvero che delle
      inesattezze anche macroscopiche sopravvivano a
      lungo in un articolo. Secondo me è un fatto
      inevitabile e che tutto sommato si può accettare.

      Wizard
      http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Wizardnon resta che provare, no? :)magari con un argomento non ancora presente, così non si sta a rompere le scatole a chi ci sta già lavorando :)ciao! :)
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: È un test non significativo
        Io l'ho già fatto tempo fa. Ero intervenuto su 10 articoli. In 9 avevo introdotto errori, uno l'avevo scritto da zero. Il test l'ho fatto su en.wiki. Dopo un paio di mesi solo 2 o 3 errori erano stati corretti e dopo circa 5 o 6 mesi sono passato a correggere gli errori rimasti, che coinvolgevano circa la metà degli articoli modificati. L'articolo che avevo scritto da zero riguardava un composto chimico ed era completamente strampalato (reattività e sintesi inventate, dati fisici contraffatti, etc.), quella versione è rimasta inalterata fino alla fine del test. Quindi il test non è andato molto bene. Di buono c'è stato che tra le correzioni apportate autonomanete dal wiki-sistema, un paio provenissero da anonimi e in alcuni casi l'errore introdotto sia stato occasione di approfondimento dell'articolo.Il test è stato condotto a gennaio/febbraio 2005, se interessa posso recuperare il report completo (spero di averlo conservato). Per eseguire un test serio secondo me si dovrebbero inquinare ben più di 10 articoli, bisognerebbe campionarli opportunamente (per esempio modulando la scelta in funzione del numero di visite a cui è soggetto ogni articolo) e introdurre diverse tipologie di errori. Non credo che ne varrebbela pena.
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: È un test non significativo
          - Scritto da: Anonimo
          Io l'ho già fatto tempo fa. Ero intervenuto su 10
          articoli. In 9 avevo introdotto errori, uno
          l'avevo scritto da zero. Il test l'ho fatto su
          en.wiki.

          Dopo un paio di mesi solo 2 o 3 errori erano
          stati corretti e dopo circa 5 o 6 mesi sono
          passato a correggere gli errori rimasti, che
          coinvolgevano circa la metà degli articoli
          modificati. L'articolo che avevo scritto da zero
          riguardava un composto chimico ed era
          completamente strampalato (reattività e sintesi
          inventate, dati fisici contraffatti, etc.),
          quella versione è rimasta inalterata fino alla
          fine del test.

          Per eseguire un test serio secondo me si
          dovrebbero inquinare ben più di 10 articoli,
          bisognerebbe campionarli opportunamente (per
          esempio modulando la scelta in funzione del
          numero di visite a cui è soggetto ogni articolo)
          e introdurre diverse tipologie di errori. Non
          credo che ne varrebbela pena.Scusate, ma cosa state cercando di dimostrare? Posso ardire un paragone, non rigoroso, ma giusto per far vedere le cose da un altro punto di vista?Prendete una persona che non denuncia malattie manifeste. Decidete di giudicare se sia meritevole o meno. Pensate di sottoporlo a esami medici, ma non siete in grado (per mille ragioni) di eseguirli, quindi invertite il procedimento. *Lo infettate apposta, con diversi ceppi batterici*. Dopo qualche mese verificate se i batteri sono ancora previsti o completamente rimossi dal suo sistema immunitario: poichè non è sempre così, giudicate la persona *MALATA* e non meritevole.Avete dimostrato che il sistema non è totalmente immune, ma invece di valutarne la bontà complessiva e accettarla nel complesso, ne avete volutamente peggiorato la situazione così da poter dire *non va bene, non è buono, ignoriamolo*.Caspita, ma allora non avete capito un acca o siete in malafede: siete una reazione autoimmune del sistema, cellule che invece di lavorare per migliorare l'organismo *a cui appartengono liberamente! la wiki è anche vostra, porcapaletta!* lo debilitano e lo ripudiano!Soprattutto, l'alternativa che proponete, qual'è? Comprarvi l'enciclopedia su carta? L'encarta di Microsoft? Ma fate pure, chi ve lo proibisce? Wiki uccide forse il vostro diritto? Violenta le donne? Mangia i bambini? Vi ruba i soldi da casa vostra? Vi riga la macchina? Oppure avete etichettato un modello sociale di condivisione delle informazioni come dannoso per il modello sociale che volete voi? Io me ne frego dell'etichetta, ma vorrei una visione più complessiva del fenomeno: ve la sentite di farlo anche voi o avete una quache reazione allergica che non ve lo permette? :)
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: È un test non significativo
            Sono perfettamente daccordo con questo modo di vedere e valutare.Traslando il concetto: mi interessa che wikipedia sia utile, utilizzabile e porti molti più vantaggi che svantaggi, il tutto "a prescindere" da come e su cosa è realizzata.Non mi interesssa se utilizza *nux, win2k, ... linguaggi, db o che altro proprietario o no.Il risultato è l'unica cosa che conta.
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: È un test non significativo
            Grande!!! Bellissimo paragone!   :D
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: È un test non significativo
          - Scritto da: Anonimo
          Io l'ho già fatto tempo fa. Ero intervenuto su 10
          articoli. In 9 avevo introdotto errori, uno
          l'avevo scritto da zero. Il test l'ho fatto su
          en.wiki. Complimenti, come quelli che lasciano in giro le carte per vedere se "qualcuno poi passa a pulire" e poi si lamentano che c'è sporco per terra ;-)
          Dopo un paio di mesi solo 2 o 3 errori erano
          stati corretti e dopo circa 5 o 6 mesi sono
          passato a correggere gli errori rimasti, Meno male, ciò non rende , imho, meno deprecabile quello che hai fatto ma almeno hai rimediato, hai raccolto la carta.Adesso, io non voglio convincere nessuno e ognuno è libero di usare il proprio tempo come meglio ritiene. Però nello stesso tempo che hai impiegato a scrivere un articolo "farlocco" potevi scriverne uno sensato, no? Oppure potevi correggere qualche errore, o fare un sacco di altre cose "costruttive" e non distruttive.La questione è che molti faticano a capire che ci sono persone che ci mettono del tempo, dell'impegno e della passione per far crescere wikipedia. Perché remare contro? Wikipedia non ti costa nulla, non ti chiede nulla e non ti ruba nulla, se vuoi la leggi se non vuoi non la leggi. Ma dov'è il senso del buttare dentro le cartacce?
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: È un test non significativo


            Dopo un paio di mesi solo 2 o 3 errori erano

            stati corretti e dopo circa 5 o 6 mesi sono

            passato a correggere gli errori rimasti,

            Meno male, ciò non rende , imho, meno deprecabile
            quello che hai fatto ma almeno hai rimediato, hai
            raccolto la carta.
            Ullallà è arrivito il garante della wiki-moralità.
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: È un test non significativo
          questi test possono al massimo servire a capire quanto wikipedia sia una risorsa condivisa, a cui partecipano (e non solo accedono) in molti: piu' persone partecipano verificando e apportando contenuti, meno questi possono essere inquinati (dall'intervento di un singolo, quando un'informazione non corretta e' "patrimonio" comune allora c'e' poco da fare).Piu' persone vi accedono solo per ottenere informazioni (magari su argomenti di cui poco o pochissimo sanno), ovvero vi accedono in maniera passiva, e piu' le probabilita' che il sistema wikipedia non funzioni sono alte.Tutto questo IMHO, ovviamente.--filoberto
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: È un test non significativo
      Si concordo che il test non prova nulla, anzi non si puo' nemmeno parlare di test, per farlo si dovrebbe inserire articoli nuovi con inesattezze, correggere artcoli vecchi inserendo altre inesatteze, il tutto dopo una analisi statistica che indichi il campione minimo necessario a rigettare l'ipotesi nulla con una significativita' stabilita.Quando si fa una affermazione si deve convincere il pubblico con delle prove a sostegno della stessa, ma e' l'analisi statistica che deve convincere a credere che lo stesso risultato non sia solo frutto del puro caso con una probabilita' mettiamo del 5%.Questo concetto e' molto importante, non basta leggere un articolo in una rivista prestigiosa, non basta che sia autorevole l'autore! Deve dimostrare che analisi statistica alla mano quel risultato potrebbe essere falso per pura casualita' sono in percentuale molto piccola.
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: È un test non significativo
      Il test è stato evidentemente concordato - tra giornalista e proprietario - per fare buona pubblicità a wikipedia... perche' e' semplicemente un argomento che "tira".Ma ci pensate a un giornalista che se ne esce con un titolo come "Wikipedia e' una bufala"? Verrebbe calpestato dall'infamia del pensiero anarchic-chic in pochi minuti.Il discorso su Wikipedia è comunque importante perche' apre al concetto filosofico di "verità": c'è chi crede che questa si vada scoprendo lentamente, con il lavoro intellettuale e l'approfondimento e c'è chi invece pensa che sia variabile, mutabile, o comunque insito nelle cose evidenti del mondo e che siano alla portata di tutti. Si scontrano due filosofie opposte.
  • Anonimo scrive:
    Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i moderatori
    ...che se si svegliano la mattina male bloccano la possibilità di scrivere. Io ho trovato molti bloccati solo perche' i moderatori facevano da pontecifi. Guardate sui partiti e sulle religioni. Ci sono scritte molte stronzate (probabilmente dalla parte avversa) ma non si possono correggere perche' gli articoli sono bloccati
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera
      Non esistono moderatori, al massimo c'è un gruppo di MANUTENTORI chiamati admin che svolgono principalmente il cosiddetto "lavoro sporco" (rollback, revert, wikificazione, blocco spam, blocco vandali, eccetera).Se poche voci vengono bloccate è solo perché piuttosto che mettersi a discutere su come migliorare la voce, molta gente non fa altro che proporre la SUA versione della pagina, infischiandosene del consenso, dell'NPOV e di cosa pensa chiunque altro.Chi non è capace a scrivere qualcosa collaborando con il prossimo, non si venga a lamentare perché la voce è bloccata. Non si è mai sentito di una voce bloccata sulla versione giusta, cfr [[meta:The Wrong Version]]
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera
        - Scritto da: Anonimo
        Non esistono moderatori, al massimo c'è un gruppo
        di MANUTENTORI chiamati admin che svolgono
        principalmente il cosiddetto "lavoro sporco"
        (rollback, revert, wikificazione, blocco spam,
        blocco vandali, eccetera).Peccato che alcuni di questi admin si prendano spesso delle libertà che vanno ben oltre la semplice funzione di manutentori.
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera

          Peccato che alcuni di questi admin si prendano
          spesso delle libertà che vanno ben oltre la
          semplice funzione di manutentori.Assolutamente falso. Sono spesso presente sulla wikipedia, non ho mai visto nulla del genere.Un amministratore diventa tale in quanto eletto dagli utenti, quindi deve essersi dimostrato affidabile ben prima di diventarlo. Tutte le modifiche fatte vengono registrate, per cui non si può fare nulla "di nascosto". Ci sono decine di amministratori. Se hai presente un caso in cui un amministratore si sia comportato male, segnalacelo pure. Ma ho seri dubbi che tu lo trovi.Ah, e poi un amministratore non ha grandi poteri. Di fatto, può solo cancellare pagine (di cui, pero`, resta traccia), bloccare pagine e utenti (e anche per questi c'e` un log, e sono cose rare).
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera

            Assolutamente falso. Sono spesso presente sulla
            wikipedia, non ho mai visto nulla del genere.
            Un amministratore diventa tale in quanto eletto
            dagli utenti, quindi deve essersi dimostrato
            affidabile ben prima di diventarlo. Tutte le
            modifiche fatte vengono registrate, per cui non
            si può fare nulla "di nascosto". Ci sono decine
            di amministratori. Se hai presente un caso in cui
            un amministratore si sia comportato male,
            segnalacelo pure. Ma ho seri dubbi che tu lo
            trovi.
            Ah, e poi un amministratore non ha grandi poteri.
            Di fatto, può solo cancellare pagine (di cui,
            pero`, resta traccia), bloccare pagine e utenti
            (e anche per questi c'e` un log, e sono cose
            rare).Se segui assiduamente la Wikipedia allora sai già di cosa parlo, polemiche di questo tipo sono continuamente accese tra i wikipediani. Non sto dicendo che facciano cose "di nascosto", quello a cui mi riferisco è che sebbene il ruolo di amministratore comporti come dici tu solo poche funzionalità aggiuntive, vi sono alcuni admin che interpretano il proprio ruolo in modo più ampio. Per esempio si permettono di fare ciò che a un normale utente non sarebbe perdonato. Nulla di grave, intendiamoci, solo una maggior disinvoltura nella gestione di articoli, pagine di servizio, discussioni, etc. Insomma come se Wikipedia fosse "cosa loro" e gli altri utenti solo ospiti. Non è un comportamento scandaloso, ma fastidioso e dannoso sì (un atteggiamento simile credo contribuisca a creare un clima non buono nella comunità e che dunque possa allontanare diversi utenti).È vero che ogni admin è stato eletto ed è richiesta una maggioranza molto ampia (ora 4/5, una volta 2/3), ma il fatto che non esista un meccanismo di revoca della carica è naturale che crei questi problemi. Non è necessario che riporti casi specifici, basta che vai a spulciarti l'archivio di Wikipedia:Bar.
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera

            una volta 2/3), ma il fatto che non esista un
            meccanismo di revoca della carica è naturale che
            crei questi problemi. Il meccanismo di revoca ESISTE eccome, ed è spiegato chiaramente.
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera
            - Scritto da: Anonimo

            una volta 2/3), ma il fatto che non esista un

            meccanismo di revoca della carica è naturale che

            crei questi problemi.


            Il meccanismo di revoca ESISTE eccome, ed è
            spiegato chiaramente.Mi spiace, non sei molto informato.http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Quando_viene_revocata_la_carica_di_amministratore
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera
      Non ho moltissimo tempo da dedicare alla Wikipedia italiana, però un po' ci bazzico. Nella parte dedicata alla politica, per così dire, non ci ho mai messo piede. Non mi interessa.Per quanto riguarda la religione, non mi sono mai imbattuto in "contenuti bloccati". Al massimo discussioni infinite sulla neutralità o meno di un articolo, ma nient'altro.Il sistema direi che funziona, decisamente.
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Pero' in Wikipedia esistono i modera
        - Scritto da: Anonimo
        Non ho moltissimo tempo da dedicare alla
        Wikipedia italiana, però un po' ci bazzico. Nella
        parte dedicata alla politica, per così dire, non
        ci ho mai messo piede. Non mi interessa.a molta gente interessa.e interessa COME LETTORE ... come fai a fidarti, come lettore, quando senti di questo tipo di faccende?
        Per quanto riguarda la religione, non mi sono mai
        imbattuto in "contenuti bloccati". Al massimo
        discussioni infinite sulla neutralità o meno di
        un articolo, ma nient'altro.

        Il sistema direi che funziona, decisamente.l'articolo di oggi è a favore e mi fa ben sperare :)resta il fatto che ho provato molte volte a leggere qualcosina su contenuti locali, anche in varie lingue ... le inesattezze o le "versioni" che ho trovato non erano vere, erano "visioni" di qualcunoio come LETTORE non ho certo tempo di stare a fare manutenzione di una cosa che devo leggere. Controllo a caso, se vedo che molte cose che conosco non sono a posto, so che non mi posso fidare.magari riprovo tra 2 anni :)vedremo :)Se mi metto in malattia x 2 mesi, magari il tempo da regalare all'umanità lo trovo :)lo strumento è ottimo, ma non perfetto, non siamo estremisti, suvvia
  • Anonimo scrive:
    peccato PI non sia wiki...
    beh dai Tommaso..."Nonostante che la libertà di poter intervenire ..."magari togliamolo sto "che", ne gioverebbe lo stile.non è polemica, è mia mera deformazione mentale :)
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: peccato PI non sia wiki...
      no. per fortuna..
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: peccato PI non sia wiki...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      beh dai Tommaso...
      "Nonostante che la libertà di poter intervenire
      ..."

      magari togliamolo sto "che", ne gioverebbe lo
      stile.

      non è polemica, è mia mera deformazione mentale :)Secondo me è deformazione e basta. Riporto dal Devoto-Oli: nonostante. Associata a *che* forma una locuzione congiuntiva con valore concessivo (nonostante che avesse avuto l'invito, si astenne dal presentarsi); talvolta anche col che sottinteso.Insomma, la frase era corretta. ;)
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: peccato PI non sia wiki...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      beh dai Tommaso...
      "Nonostante che la libertà di poter intervenire
      ..."

      magari togliamolo sto "che", ne gioverebbe lo
      stile.

      non è polemica, è mia mera deformazione mentale :)perchè non fai come me e mandi la segnalazione in redazione, invece di banfare in pubblico?tra 10 secondi il refuso verrà corretto e il tuo inutile commento pubblico diventerà solo una perdita di tempo, come una macchia sul muro che si poteva evitare.usa l'e-mail per i refusi, funziona ;-)
  • Anonimo scrive:
    Giusto ieri...
    ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia? chessò:- una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui nessuno può sapere niente- una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la veridicità perché sconosciuta...vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?CiaoClaudio
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?

      Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test
      che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia?
      chessò:

      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere niente

      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciuta

      ...

      vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?

      Ciao
      Claudioma ti assicuro che basta molto ma molto meno.
    • pacionet scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      Un test che mi viene in mente è quello di prendere 500 articoli scelti a caso e valutare la correttezza delle informazioni contenute con un punteggio che va da 0 a 10 , dato da un esperto della materia di quell' articolo.Questo tra l' altro lo dovrebbero fare anche su altre enciclopedie ... secondo me
      • TomSawyer scrive:
        Re: Giusto ieri...
        - Scritto da: pacionet
        Questo tra l' altro lo dovrebbero fare anche su
        altre enciclopedie ... secondo mefammi un esempio di enciclopedia che ha ttuo cio' che ha wikipedia.Encarta... encartace pure er salame!!bbeh se anche ne trovi una.. tra breve sarà già superata...
        • avvelenato scrive:
          Re: Giusto ieri...
          - Scritto da: TomSawyer

          - Scritto da: pacionet

          Questo tra l' altro lo dovrebbero fare anche su

          altre enciclopedie ... secondo me

          fammi un esempio di enciclopedia che ha ttuo cio'
          che ha wikipedia.

          Encarta... encartace pure er salame!!

          bbeh se anche ne trovi una.. tra breve sarà già
          superata...ma il tuo intervento che attinenza ha con quello al quale stai rispondendo?
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?

      Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test
      che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia?
      chessò:

      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere niente

      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciuta

      ...

      vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?Il mio test personale lo voglio fare tra qualche giorno...
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      Bhe anche se si trattasse un soggetto inventato, al limite non sarebbe una voce completamente fuori luogo, in quanto si riferirebbe ad un fatto frutto di un'esperienza personale( o presunta tale) anche se non oggettiva, in quanto non verificata da fatti.In pratica è come se tu dicessi di aver conosciuto un tizio Pinco pallino che diceva di aver fatto questo e quello; senza riferimenti precisi a fonti che provino l'esistenza di questa persona, l'intera voce sarebbe solo un'opinione e non un fatto, e credo che nessuno cercherebbe di spacciarla come tale. Discorso diverso per cose oggettivamente false...- Scritto da: Anonimo
      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?

      Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test
      che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia?
      chessò:

      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere niente

      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciuta

      ...

      vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?

      Ciao
      Claudio
    • avvelenato scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?

      Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test
      che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia?
      chessò:

      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere niente

      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciuta

      ...

      vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?

      Ciao
      Claudioero io, e sinceramente sono piacevolmente stupito dalla notizia. In fondo era ciò che speravo, visto che wiki lo leggo gradevolmente (anche se per ora solo come passatempo). Tuttavia rimane una certa qual dipendenza ad una "massa critica" di utenti wiki con conoscenze nell'argomento "corrotto". Sarebbe curioso ora sapere qual'è stata la voce che il giornalista ha falsamente descritto, in modo da capire se era un argomento alla portata di molti, di tutti, o di nessuno.(no perché se io m'invento un articolo su di un villaggio dell'africa dove so per certo che le connessioni ad internet sono tendenti a zero, temo che la probabilità che qualcuno vi capiti e dopo che vi è capitato decida di correggerlo, sia bassina.)
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Giusto ieri...
        - Scritto da: avvelenato
        (no perché se io m'invento un articolo su di un
        villaggio dell'africa dove so per certo che le
        connessioni ad internet sono tendenti a zero,
        temo che la probabilità che qualcuno vi capiti e
        dopo che vi è capitato decida di correggerlo, sia
        bassina.)Quindi anche il danno sarebbe bassissimo. Nessuno cercherebbe mai quella voce inventata e il numero delle persone che dovessero capitarci per sbaglio sarebbe così irrisorio da non costituire un danno.Questo a mio parere.ENERGIA Severus
        • Anonimo scrive:
          Re: Giusto ieri...


          (no perché se io m'invento un articolo su di un

          villaggio dell'africa dove so per certo che le

          connessioni ad internet sono tendenti a zero,

          temo che la probabilità che qualcuno vi capiti e

          dopo che vi è capitato decida di correggerlo,
          sia

          bassina.)

          Quindi anche il danno sarebbe bassissimo.
          Nessuno cercherebbe mai quella voce inventata e
          il numero delle persone che dovessero capitarci
          per sbaglio sarebbe così irrisorio da non
          costituire un danno.il danno ci sarebbe lo stesso. e ci sarebbero molte persone che controllerebbero, chiederebbero maggiori informazioni, proverebbero a salvare l'articolo cercando di strutturarlo con informazioni verificate.quindi il danno non sarebbe poi così "minimo".ciao, buona giornata.
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Giusto ieri...
            Ma non avete nient'altro da fare che inserire voci false su Wikipedia? E' preoccupante.Se avete tutto quel tempo, passate a correggere tutti gli errori di cui parlate.
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Giusto ieri...

            il danno ci sarebbe lo stesso. e ci sarebbero
            molte persone che controllerebbero, chiederebbero
            maggiori informazioni, proverebbero a salvare
            l'articolo cercando di strutturarlo con
            informazioni verificate.
            quindi il danno non sarebbe poi così "minimo".
            ciao, buona giornata.Il danno consisterebbe nel tempo che andrebbe perso per fare ricerche, correggere, proporre per la cancellazione, discutere la cancellazione e cancellare.Tutto tempo sottratto ad attività più utili e sensate.Per me, per te e alla fine per tutti. Visto che molti dicono di leggere spesso Wikipedia.E' così difficile farsi venire la voglia di "collaborare" e togliersi di dosso la voglia (molto italiana) di fare i furbi o fare "danni" solo per il gusto?Mah...
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Giusto ieri...

            E' così difficile farsi venire la voglia di
            "collaborare" e togliersi di dosso la voglia
            (molto italiana) di fare i furbi o fare "danni"
            solo per il gusto?

            Mah...stai parlando (o meglio rispondendo) con un admin di wikipedia, eh... cioé con una persona che si smazza il controllo, la collaborazione, la diplomazia, la vita "e tutto il resto" ed è realmente preoccupata che esistano persone che hanno voglia di fare i troll su wikipedia.non solo preoccupata per wiki (che comunque grazie ai propri utenti è perfettamente in grado di crescere bene e sana), ma soprattutto preoccupata per quelle stesse persone, che non hanno di meglio da fare.;-)
          • Anonimo scrive:
            Re: Giusto ieri...
            - Scritto da: Anonimo

            E' così difficile farsi venire la voglia di

            "collaborare" e togliersi di dosso la voglia

            (molto italiana) di fare i furbi o fare "danni"

            solo per il gusto?


            stai parlando (o meglio rispondendo) con un admin
            di wikipedia,(SNIP) ed è
            realmente preoccupata che esistano persone che
            hanno voglia di fare i troll su wikipedia.
            non solo preoccupata per wiki (che comunque
            grazie ai propri utenti è perfettamente in grado
            di crescere bene e sana), ma soprattutto
            preoccupata per quelle stesse persone, che non
            hanno di meglio da fare.
            ;-)Condivido appieno! Perchè diamine se qualcuno ha disponibile gratuitamente un bene, invece di goderne (o ignorarlo) pensa a come vandalizzarlo? Ma almeno ci guadagnano i soldi di qualche editore o sono quelli che da piccoli erano gelosi del pallone degli altri bambini e si divertivano a bucarlo invece di giocare con loro? ;)
        • Riot scrive:
          Re: Giusto ieri...

          Quindi anche il danno sarebbe bassissimo.
          Nessuno cercherebbe mai quella voce inventata e
          il numero delle persone che dovessero capitarci
          per sbaglio sarebbe così irrisorio da non
          costituire un danno.Esattamente, è tutto qui il nocciolo della questione.Per fare un test serio bisognerebbe trovare un argomento che possa interessare ad numero di persone di almeno due cifre e fare aggiunte plausibili, ma false.
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...

      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?No, perché l'articolo in questione era dichiaratamente un test (vedi link nell'articolo di PI).
      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere nienteSecondo la policy di Wikipedia, verrebbe cancellato: no a ricerche personali (sulla wiki italiana c'è stato qualche esempio, ora leggibile sulla sezione "wikitapiro").
      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciutaIdem come sopra.Wizardhttp://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Wizard
    • Gonzo the Great scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?

      Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test
      che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia?
      chessò:

      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere niente

      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciuta

      ...

      vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?

      Ciao
      ClaudioUn dubbio che ho sempre avuto e' questo: cosa succederebbe se qualcuno "ritoccasse" ad arte particolari apparentemente di poco conto, come per esempio spostare di qualche giorno una data.Faccio un esempio: Si dice che Napoleone sia nato nel 1769, poco dopo che i genovesi lasciarono la Corsica alla Francia. Fosse nato un anno prima, formalmente, sarebbe stato cittadino della repubblica di Genova e non francese, e questo avrebbe molte ripercussioni su altre voci della Wikipedia.Per la cronaca c'e' chi sostiene che Napoleone sia nato davvero prima, ma che abbia falsificato lui stesso la sua data di nascita per poter accedere all'accademia militare ..... (http://www.arcobaleno.net/personaggi/napoleone.htm)
      • Anonimo scrive:
        Re: Giusto ieri...
        [...]
        Faccio un esempio: Si dice che Napoleone sia nato
        nel 1769, poco dopo che i genovesi lasciarono la
        Corsica alla Francia. Fosse nato un anno prima,
        formalmente, sarebbe stato cittadino della
        repubblica di Genova e non francese, e questo
        avrebbe molte ripercussioni su altre voci della
        Wikipedia.

        Per la cronaca c'e' chi sostiene che Napoleone
        sia nato davvero prima, ma che abbia falsificato
        lui stesso la sua data di nascita per poter
        accedere all'accademia militare .....
        (http://www.arcobaleno.net/personaggi/napoleone.htIn ogni caso non mi sembra una cosa che possa sconvolgere. Il fatto che Napoleone sia nato un anno prima o un anno dopo non cambierebbe una virgola la sua vita e quello che ha fatto. Forse la avrebbe cambiata a lui, per esempio accedere all'accademia militare o no, ma una voce su un'enciclopedia non e` una macchina del tempo. Anche le dispute sulla nascita di Cristoforo Colombo a Genova o no, non penso cambierebbero il fatto di aver scoperto l'America.Secondo me possono sfuggire delle nozioni secondarie (come in tutte le enciclopedie del mondo), ma le cose "importanti" vengono inserite correttamente.
        • Gonzo the Great scrive:
          Re: Giusto ieri...
          - Scritto da: Anonimo
          [...]

          Faccio un esempio: Si dice che Napoleone sia
          nato

          nel 1769, poco dopo che i genovesi lasciarono la

          Corsica alla Francia. Fosse nato un anno prima,

          formalmente, sarebbe stato cittadino della

          repubblica di Genova e non francese, e questo

          avrebbe molte ripercussioni su altre voci della

          Wikipedia.



          Per la cronaca c'e' chi sostiene che Napoleone

          sia nato davvero prima, ma che abbia falsificato

          lui stesso la sua data di nascita per poter

          accedere all'accademia militare .....


          (http://www.arcobaleno.net/personaggi/napoleone.ht

          In ogni caso non mi sembra una cosa che possa
          sconvolgere. Il fatto che Napoleone sia nato un
          anno prima o un anno dopo non cambierebbe una
          virgola la sua vita e quello che ha fatto. Forse
          la avrebbe cambiata a lui, per esempio accedere
          all'accademia militare o no, ma una voce su
          un'enciclopedia non e` una macchina del tempo.
          Anche le dispute sulla nascita di Cristoforo
          Colombo a Genova o no, non penso cambierebbero il
          fatto di aver scoperto l'America.
          Secondo me possono sfuggire delle nozioni
          secondarie (come in tutte le enciclopedie del
          mondo), ma le cose "importanti" vengono inserite
          correttamente.Effettivamente le vicende storiche nessuno le puo' piu' modificare....Riflettendoci un po' mi sono anche convinto che inesattezze grandi (e dunque piu' pericolose) sono anche piu' facilmente identificabili e quindi hanno meno probabilita' di restare "on line" a fare danni oppure di essere prese per veritiere.Provo a fare un altro esempio: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pi The numerical value of π rounded to 50 decimal places (sequence A000796 in OEIS) is:3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37511 Se qualche pirla avesse modificato il numero in una delle prime tre cifre significative quasi sicuramente l'inesattezza sarebbe stata rilevata presto e nessuno avrebbe mai avuto la malaugurata idea di approssimare pi greco a 3. 7 4Se invece il pirla avesse scelto di taroccare il pi greco in 3.1415926535897 6 32384626433832795028841971 6939937511 avrebbe avuto maggiori possibilita' di far passare per buona l'inesattezza per piu' tempo.
    • Riot scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere nienteSe il soggetto è inventato nessuno lo cercherà mai su wikipedia, quindi non solo non verrà mai corretto, ma non verrà mai letto. Test Inutile.
      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciutaDipende da quanto interesse c'è per l'argomento: se è alto allora sicuramente qualcuno leggerà e corregerà, se è basso non lo leggerà nessuno e non arriverà la correzione.C'è poco da fare, per come strutturata wikipedia, i possibili errori o vengono corretti in fretta o danneggiano (vengono letti) un numero bassissimo di persone.
    • Anonimo scrive:
      Re: Giusto ieri...
      - Scritto da: Anonimo
      ...se ne faceva un gran parlare e qualcuno
      scommetteva che in 10 minuti un errore sarebbe
      stato corretto. Diamo la scommessa vinta?

      Domanda seria: è possibile pensare a qualche test
      che metta "veramente" alla prova Wikipedia?
      chessò:

      - una voce su un soggetto inventato di cui
      nessuno può sapere niente

      - una voce su cui nessuno possa esprimere la
      veridicità perché sconosciuta

      ...

      vi viene in mente qualche test del genere?

      Ciao
      Claudioè facilissimo:cerca qualcosa sul tuo COMUNE e su qualche disastro grave; poi confrontalo con versioni in inglese e vedi se tutto quadra.magari cerca qualcosa che *sospetti* possa avere versioni positive/negative in relazione con la politica (ovvero, mettono in buona o cattiva luce qualcuno)non è necessaria questa finezza... controlla comunque qualche comune semplicissimo... zone geografiche ... fatti storici degli ultimi 100 anni noti direttamente a te o a qualche testimone che conosci.verifica con il metodo scientifico e la documentazione direttavedremo :)
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